2 x10's = DEAD BATTERY

[Memme]

WEWT!!!

Good thing I bought a jump box.

Just installed the twin Concept 10's and 525 Amp from Krinedog last night... my buddy used to do installs... got it running, once we figured out the kit came with fubar RCA cables, and swapped those out...

Got some bump in the trunk now... but... head unit starts cutting out... air bag light comes on... yada yada yada... car won't start.

Jump box...

Car starts...

Now... last night a lot of fucking around, strained the battery I'm sure... but... long term... am I going to have a problem? Need two batteries to run twin 10's??? I would think not... that sounds like something for a crazy setup, not a couple 10's...

Yeah, I have standard sized battery. AZ Special for the 240...

[Howard]

What ohm speakers and how are they hooked up ( series, parallel, what size wire )
What size power wire did you run to the amp? Where are you pulling power from? Should be direct from the battery through a fuse. Run as large a wire as practical. Keep ground wire as short as possible and same size as + wire. You might need a capacitor to keep the voltage up.

[Memme]

It's a 4ohm setup with 8ga fused wire from the battery to the amp. Parallel 16g from the amp to the speakers... Yeah, 8ga to the ground too... I think it was just suffering from the install troubleshooting/testing last night. Seems to work decent since running today...

[nino]

if your head unit starts cutting out once you turn up volume as far as i know u need better ground and about the light coming on probably was wired wrong or
was because your battery was dying i may be wrong

[ionz]

It's a 4ohm setup with 8ga fused wire from the battery to the amp. Parallel 16g from the amp to the speakers... Yeah, 8ga to the ground too... I think it was just suffering from the install troubleshooting/testing last night. Seems to work decent since running today...
8G might be a little too small to be running two 10s
i suggest 4+ it'll make it easier to upgrade too if you ever want to.
i'm running 4g on a 400w amp and a 10 and i've never had any problems.

[300sx]

You'll need better wires and maybe a cap I've got two 12s and a 3000w amp with 2ga wires in my truck and they had a problem of killing my battery and straining the alternator until I got the cap.

[ThatS13Guy]

You'll need better wires and maybe a cap I've got two 12s and a 3000w amp with 2ga wires in my truck and they had a problem of killing my battery and straining the alternator until I got the cap.


niiiiiiiiiiiice got some boom in the trunk lol

[Buccaneer_9]

A 1 farad capacitor & a more powerful alternator will solve that problem.

[Memme]

Capacitor huh... my buddy mentioned that. Said probably not, but maybe... we'll see how it goes. I don't plan on upgrading ever, that's why we said 8ga would be good enough. This is my first set of subs, and I'm 34... lol... so I'm not like... moving up in the audio world lol...

[Totyroby]

1 12">2 10" my opinion.but a capacitor wouldn't hurt at all and theres really cheap good ones on cg.

[csramotorsports]

What ohm speakers and how are they hooked up ( series, parallel, what size wire )
What size power wire did you run to the amp? Where are you pulling power from? Should be direct from the battery through a fuse. Run as large a wire as practical. Keep ground wire as short as possible and same size as + wire. You might need a capacitor to keep the voltage up.


Capacitor's are just paper weights that cost money, don't waste your time.

---------- Post added at 12:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:01 PM ----------


1 12">2 10" my opinion.but a capacitor wouldn't hurt at all and theres really cheap good ones on cg.

Actually it will hurt. Stay away from Caps. Huge misconception in the car audio world.

[Trap Star]

You could invest in either an optima red top or yellow top. Thatll make a huge difference and it will last a lot longer than a regular battery. I ran my 12in w6v2 and 500/1 as well as a smaller kenwood 2 channel for several years without issue with a red top. 4ga wire will make a big difference as well. When i upgraded from 8ga there was a very noticiable difference.

[csramotorsports]

Make sure you don't have a constant live wire connected somewhere that SHOULD be hooked up only to an ACC.

Do BIG 3 upgrade. Take some 1/0 and run new battery grounds, alternator power wire and ground, chassis ground.

Use a good deep cycle battery like stated above, there not so expensive anymore.

Make sure you're amp is not clipping

[Trap Star]

Troof.

[Shigun]

csramotorsports, I'm not sure you know as much about capacitors as you seem to think, and I really would love to know how they are a "huge misconception in the car audio world." They are not just a big paper weight, they have an intended function and purpose in all electrical systems, and they do explicitly as intended in an automotive audio sense, which is to lessen the load on the power source which would wind up killing it.

In a case where the audio system is taking a huge drain on the battery/alt, such as when the volume is turned up or the subwoofers are hitting, instead of pulling huge amounts of power directly from the electrical system, it pulls out of the cap, and just trickle charges from the electrical system.

The size capacitor you get should be determined by the load that is being pulled as well. If you get too small of a capacitor, then you will essentially be drawing the same amount through the capacitor as you would be without it (IE, you're draining the capacitor so quickly that it's pulling just as much from the battery/alt trying to charge itself back up). In this case, the capacitor is worthless in it's small factor. For what you are describing, a 1 farad capacitor should be more than enough.

[csramotorsports]

All I read was ur first sentence btw...don't get me started man...I use to get into debates with noobs on the car audio forums for years over this same issue...if I have too...I will provide the proof..

I did 146.8db's on the glass on MUSIC with a box tuned to 28hz in an extended cab, I lived and breathed car audio for many years, spent tons of money on it, used brands that most never even heard of, pieced together my own underhung drivers, blah blah blah.... I know what I'm talking about with this subject.. CAPS ARE CRAP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Totyroby]

Capacitors for life!Why did they make them if they are so useless?I know a bunch of friends back in Europe who use them and had good results.Just talking from what I've seen I'm no expert.
I bet u have good point;)

[Shigun]

All I read was ur first sentence btw...don't get me started man...I use to get into debates with noobs on the car audio forums for years over this same issue...if I have too...I will provide the proof..

I did 146.8db's on the glass on MUSIC with a box tuned to 28hz in an extended cab, I lived and breathed car audio for many years, spent tons of money on it, used brands that most never even heard of, pieced together my own underhung drivers, blah blah blah.... I know what I'm talking about with this subject.. CAPS ARE CRAP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Please, enlighten me with your "proof." The fact that you stated you only read my first sentence already states you have a blatant disregard for discussions, and will only listen to what you want to hear, so that is pretty much making me want to disregard your "experience" as simple backless boasting. I'm telling you from an electrical engineering standpoint, which will trump any "living and breathing" of car audio, that capacitors have a purpose, and just because you don't think so does not mean they are crap. That just means you don't know how to use them, that you will over-engineer your "solutions", and that you don't know as much as you think you do.

[Howard]

All I read was ur first sentence btw...don't get me started man...I use to get into debates with noobs on the car audio forums for years over this same issue...if I have too...I will provide the proof..

I did 146.8db's on the glass on MUSIC with a box tuned to 28hz in an extended cab, I lived and breathed car audio for many years, spent tons of money on it, used brands that most never even heard of, pieced together my own underhung drivers, blah blah blah.... I know what I'm talking about with this subject.. CAPS ARE CRAP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Still waiting for proof caps are crap.

Your argument is like saying " I screwed the town slut without a rubber and didn't catch a STD".

Caps serve their purpose. There is a reason all of the pro audio people use them.

[Shigun]

I feel I should add a clarification that he is correct in saying to do the big 3, but that is something that is just basic logic. I'm not trying to completely disregard his statements....just everything he has said about capacitors being useless paperweights...

[300sx]

" I screwed the town slut without a rubber and didn't catch a STD".Csramotorsports we're waiting?

[Howard]

Make sure you don't have a constant live wire connected somewhere that SHOULD be hooked up only to an ACC.

Do BIG 3 upgrade. Take some 1/0 and run new battery grounds, alternator power wire and ground, chassis ground.

Use a good deep cycle battery like stated above, there not so expensive anymore.

Make sure you're amp is not clipping
I agree, this was very good advice.

[300sx]

Howard thanx for the awesome new sig

[ionz]

capacitors = physics
they build and hold a charge to be released upon the necessity of it.
they're there for a reason and they do their job well.

Csramotorsports we're waiting?
.

[csramotorsports]

Still waiting for proof caps are crap.

Your argument is like saying " I screwed the town slut without a rubber and didn't catch a STD".

Caps serve their purpose. There is a reason all of the pro audio people use them.

oh jeebus


Ya...pro audio "people" use them... for reasons that will not benefit ^this guy.

---------- Post added 08-20-2011 at 12:22 AM ---------- Previous post was 08-19-2011 at 11:58 PM ----------

A cap adds resistance.

A caps only good use is to supply a FASTER power source than a battery can discharge, this is the reason PRO's use them for there one note wonders. Once a cap is discharged, it takes time for it to "fill up" (im trying to be blunt as possible).

All these poeple stating adding a cap will help, obviously don't understand how these things work, or how the electrical system works. A cap won't help an already weak electrical system. It will only hurt it. A cap can ONLY benefit an already stout electrical system...but only for a specific use.

So say you have a 1 farad capacitor. Farads are a measurement of electrons. Voltage is a measurment of how closely packed those electrons are. If you have a large draw on your amplifier, it's common for most people to see a voltage drop from 13.8 to about 12 because the alternator can't supply enough current so it has to use the battery. Once a cap see's voltage drop it will discharge and stabalize the voltage and then need to recharge, causing added strain on the electrical system. So, the OP will not benefit from a stiffening cap, it will only strain his electrical system more. If you want to be a pro in the audio world, put 3 500amp alts in your ride. A shit ton of batteries. And whatever necessary farad caps, and you will be able to do great and hold decent voltage for a competition ( prob. not bass race).

If you are driving around on the street, with your stock alt, red top battery, and a 2 farad cap...shoot yourself

---------- Post added at 12:30 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:22 AM ----------


capacitors = physics
they build and hold a charge to be released upon the necessity of it.
they're there for a reason and they do their job well.

.

This man knows what he's talking about in this sentence. They are there for a reason and they DO do there job well...I'm talking about the capacitors that are already a part of your amplifier. Not what everyone else is trying to argue with me about

---------- Post added at 12:33 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:30 AM ----------

Oh ya there good for AC rippling also...again..nothing that will benefit OP or pretty much anyone else thinking they neeed a super cool ultra high farad cap from best buy

---------- Post added at 12:34 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:33 AM ----------

CAN YOU HEAR ME NOW!!???

http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/3238/l66b1e726478ba5909fa9c3.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/4/l66b1e726478ba5909fa9c3.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

[Shigun]

oh jeebus

Ya...pro audio "people" use them... for reasons that will not benefit ^this guy.


Wrong.



A cap adds resistance.


This right here already displays your gross lack of knowledge in relation to capacitors. Capacitors add resistance over time, as they charge. When they get to the point of a full charge, their resistance is enough that that current does not flow through them. That is, at 0 charge, the resistance is essentially nil. At "full" charge, the resistance of a capacitor is almost infinity (I say "full" because capacitors do not ever fully charge to their rated capacitance, due to minute amounts of trickle discharge). This is by design. We do not want current flowing into a fully charged capacitor, thus overcharging it and continuing to draw on the voltage source.



A caps only good use is to supply a FASTER power source than a battery can discharge, this is the reason PRO's use them for there one note wonders. Once a cap is discharged, it takes time for it to "fill up" (im trying to be blunt as possible).


THAT IS THE POINT. A capacitor is designed to provide an alternative energy source to the battery, when the drain on the battery is too quick for it to adequately provide it. The time for a capacitor to charge should be negligible in an automotive usage, because the capacitor should be large enough that it will not fully discharge in normal usage. If your capacitor is being discharged, you do not have a large enough capacitor for the system being used.



All these poeple stating adding a cap will help, obviously don't understand how these things work, or how the electrical system works. A cap won't help an already weak electrical system. It will only hurt it. A cap can ONLY benefit an already stout electrical system...but only for a specific use.


At no point was it stated that his electrical system was weak to a point that it would not function, it was stated that his head unit was cutting out, which goes to say that the alernator/battery are having to work exceedingly hard to power this new system of his, and is in such providing a lack of proper voltage. This, without being able to look at the system and go over it with a multimeter, would seem to imply that his system, when in usage, is making too large of a draw. This can be alleviated by adding a capacitor, such that it will not make the big pulls that it has been, because the stock electrical system should be able to easily handle this setup.



So say you have a 1 farad capacitor. Farads are a measurement of electrons. Voltage is a measurment of how closely packed those electrons are. If you have a large draw on your amplifier, it's common for most people to see a voltage drop from 13.8 to about 12 because the alternator can't supply enough current so it has to use the battery. Once a cap see's voltage drop it will discharge and stabalize the voltage and then need to recharge, causing added strain on the electrical system. So, the OP will not benefit from a stiffening cap, it will only strain his electrical system more. If you want to be a pro in the audio world, put 3 500amp alts in your ride. A shit ton of batteries. And whatever necessary farad caps, and you will be able to do great and hold decent voltage for a competition ( prob. not bass race).


Seriously, what the fuck? I think you just broke my brain with your "Farads are a measurement of electrons." Farads are a measurement of capacitance. Electrical potential energy. Not electrons. Electrons by themselves are a subatomic particle of negative energy, and don't do shit alone. Voltage is electric potential difference, delta V, the difference of electric potential between one point and another.

The capacitor does not "see" a voltage drop and discharge. Once it discharges voltage, because of usage, the resistance in a capacitor drops, and voltage will begin flowing again. If you are seeing a voltage drop on a system BEFORE the capacitor is in, then the problem there already lies in the fact that the system is drawing too much power. The point of a capacitor is not to alleviate power usage. It is to alleviate power draw. Please, get that through your head, you are arguing a completely different scenario.



If you are driving around on the street, with your stock alt, red top battery, and a 2 farad cap...shoot yourself

If you are driving around on the street with a shit ton of batteries, and no capacitor, please shoot yourself, because you are going to be straining that alternator far more than a capacitor would. The solution to your electrical issues is not "oh, it's drawing a huge amount of energy....without figuring out what's going on, let's just throw more batteries in there." That's stupid. Electrical systems are planned out, designed, and worked such that they are efficient. Throwing more batteries at the problem is not efficient.

A capacitor is designed to alleviate the load on a battery. In an automotive sense, with a consumer grade sound system (since you seem to think everybody is trying to do bass competition level systems), a capacitor makes perfect sense for a simple setup. Even in competition level systems, a few capacitors positioned between the speakers and amplifier, will help reduce load on the batteries, as they will still only have to trickle charge instead of doing huge charges every time they hit.



This man knows what he's talking about in this sentence. They are there for a reason and they DO do there job well...I'm talking about the capacitors that are already a part of your amplifier. Not what everyone else is trying to argue with me about


The man seems to have agreed with the vast majority of everybody else, in that the capacitor has a job which it does, and at times does need to be added into the circuit outside of the "inside the amp" scenario. Stop trying to back peddle to now say that there are some good capacitors. Amplifiers are made for a general sense. If the circuit does not fit the need, it has to be modified. In that sense, a capacitor does make sense in some scenarios.



Oh ya there good for AC rippling also...again..nothing that will benefit OP or pretty much anyone else thinking they neeed a super cool ultra high farad cap from best buy


This is irrelevant to this particular discussion. The current throughout the circuit is all DC, and once again, in the basis that the OP is having an issue in which the sound system is generating a huge drain from the battery/alternator, it can and will benefit them. And, nobody said anything about an ultra high farad cap. I think the recommendation was thrown out for a 1 farad capacitor, which would be plenty.

As stated, your "experience" seems to be paltry. It's pretty much come up to state "Yeah, I've done this for so long" without noting the fact that you have been doing it wrong the whole time. On top of that, you have a gross negligence when it comes to understanding how electronics work, and thus want to dismiss the proper usage of something as "unnecessary."

[Memme]

Wrong.



This right here already displays your gross lack of knowledge in relation to capacitors. Capacitors add resistance over time, as they charge. When they get to the point of a full charge, their resistance is enough that that current does not flow through them. That is, at 0 charge, the resistance is essentially nil. At "full" charge, the resistance of a capacitor is almost infinity (I say "full" because capacitors do not ever fully charge to their rated capacitance, due to minute amounts of trickle discharge). This is by design. We do not want current flowing into a fully charged capacitor, thus overcharging it and continuing to draw on the voltage source.



THAT IS THE POINT. A capacitor is designed to provide an alternative energy source to the battery, when the drain on the battery is too quick for it to adequately provide it. The time for a capacitor to charge should be negligible in an automotive usage, because the capacitor should be large enough that it will not fully discharge in normal usage. If your capacitor is being discharged, you do not have a large enough capacitor for the system being used.



At no point was it stated that his electrical system was weak to a point that it would not function, it was stated that his head unit was cutting out, which goes to say that the alernator/battery are having to work exceedingly hard to power this new system of his, and is in such providing a lack of proper voltage. This, without being able to look at the system and go over it with a multimeter, would seem to imply that his system, when in usage, is making too large of a draw. This can be alleviated by adding a capacitor, such that it will not make the big pulls that it has been, because the stock electrical system should be able to easily handle this setup.



Seriously, what the fuck? I think you just broke my brain with your "Farads are a measurement of electrons." Farads are a measurement of capacitance. Electrical potential energy. Not electrons. Electrons by themselves are a subatomic particle of negative energy, and don't do shit alone. Voltage is electric potential difference, delta V, the difference of electric potential between one point and another.

The capacitor does not "see" a voltage drop and discharge. Once it discharges voltage, because of usage, the resistance in a capacitor drops, and voltage will begin flowing again. If you are seeing a voltage drop on a system BEFORE the capacitor is in, then the problem there already lies in the fact that the system is drawing too much power. The point of a capacitor is not to alleviate power usage. It is to alleviate power draw. Please, get that through your head, you are arguing a completely different scenario.



If you are driving around on the street with a shit ton of batteries, and no capacitor, please shoot yourself, because you are going to be straining that alternator far more than a capacitor would. The solution to your electrical issues is not "oh, it's drawing a huge amount of energy....without figuring out what's going on, let's just throw more batteries in there." That's stupid. Electrical systems are planned out, designed, and worked such that they are efficient. Throwing more batteries at the problem is not efficient.

A capacitor is designed to alleviate the load on a battery. In an automotive sense, with a consumer grade sound system (since you seem to think everybody is trying to do bass competition level systems), a capacitor makes perfect sense for a simple setup. Even in competition level systems, a few capacitors positioned between the speakers and amplifier, will help reduce load on the batteries, as they will still only have to trickle charge instead of doing huge charges every time they hit.



The man seems to have agreed with the vast majority of everybody else, in that the capacitor has a job which it does, and at times does need to be added into the circuit outside of the "inside the amp" scenario. Stop trying to back peddle to now say that there are some good capacitors. Amplifiers are made for a general sense. If the circuit does not fit the need, it has to be modified. In that sense, a capacitor does make sense in some scenarios.



This is irrelevant to this particular discussion. The current throughout the circuit is all DC, and once again, in the basis that the OP is having an issue in which the sound system is generating a huge drain from the battery/alternator, it can and will benefit them. And, nobody said anything about an ultra high farad cap. I think the recommendation was thrown out for a 1 farad capacitor, which would be plenty.

As stated, your "experience" seems to be paltry. It's pretty much come up to state "Yeah, I've done this for so long" without noting the fact that you have been doing it wrong the whole time. On top of that, you have a gross negligence when it comes to understanding how electronics work, and thus want to dismiss the proper usage of something as "unnecessary."


Lol... this is awesome.

I think I'm good though.

I have a high amp alternator, at least the highest amp available to me at the time... it was a choice of 90 or 120 I believe, and I picked the 120...

My battery is the 35RL or some shit from Duralast.

The grounds were properly done, and the remote wire is solid, and whatever... made sure it powers off when I turn off the car. I guess we could run a fatter gauge ground and whatever, but I'll get to that if I need to. It looks like it's going to work fine as long as I'm not hanging around bumping the system with the car off.

[Howard]

csramotorsports (http://240atlanta.com/forums/member.php?7749-csramotorsports)



Post #13 was right on target! The comments on capacitors are not. I didn't say a cap will solve all of his problems. But, If all of the wiring is proper size, the Alt and battery are good, Output impedance is correct for the amp and it still drops out when hitting the low notes a cap is the next logical step.

BTW I do know what I am talking about:
I installed my first "audio system in the 70's. Way before they were popular
2 years of Electronics Tech school in the NAVY
4 years working on Radar, Inertial Navigation equipment and CCTV on Military aircraft
34 years working as an electronics tech.
Wired Discos in the 80's
Home theaters in the 90's
Build several car audio systems with several thousands of watt systems
Etc.,Etc.,Etc., I could go on but the point is I know what a cap is and does.

[csramotorsports]

Wow that Shigun dude just typed a whole shit ton of CRAP

---------- Post added at 11:12 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:07 AM ----------


csramotorsports (http://240atlanta.com/forums/member.php?7749-csramotorsports)
Post #13 was right on target! The comments on capacitors are not. I didn't say a cap will solve all of his problems. But, If all of the wiring is proper size, the Alt and battery are good, Output impedance is correct for the amp and it still drops out when hitting the low notes a cap is the next logical step.

BTW I do know what I am talking about:
I installed my first "audio system in the 70's. Way before they were popular
2 years of Electronics Tech school in the NAVY
4 years working on Radar, Inertial Navigation equipment and CCTV on Military aircraft
34 years working as an electronics tech.
Wired Discos in the 80's
Home theaters in the 90's
Build several car audio systems with several thousands of watt systems
Etc.,Etc.,Etc., I could go on but the point is I know what a cap is and does.

Well that's all fine and dandy Howard and cudo's for you, but I'm sorry you are wrong about your idea of proper use for a stiffening capacitor. Anyways, do what you guys want, believe what you want, go ahead and wire in a billion fucking caps for all I care.


My main concern was to actually help out Memme, I probably should have just PM'd the man and told him what's up real quick. Sorry Memme, I crossed the line and these extremely intelligent people called me out and forced me to back peddle my way into my little corner...

---------- Post added at 11:13 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:12 AM ----------

lmao..I just read a little more of Shiguns knowledge....fuckin Epic! The car audio forums would fucking love this shit.

---------- Post added at 11:23 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:13 AM ----------

Also worth mentioning, much of the perceived benefits of adding a cap (my lights stopped dimming as much, etc) is not because a cap specifically was used, but because a power source/storage device was placed very near the amplifier, minimizing voltage loss due to wire resistance. A relatively low ESR batt placed very near the amp would have a much similar effect, with the benefit of additional storage capacity.

---------- Post added at 11:24 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:23 AM ----------

Here you go know it all's read this

http://www.nanopulser.com.sg/capacitor.htm

[Memme]

What's an ESR battery...

IDK shit about any of this. :)

I just don't want to have to drive around with a jump box... although... it's not a bad idea anyway.

[csramotorsports]

ALL CURRENT IS DRAWN FROM THE HIGHEST SOURCE OF POTENTIAL in a parallel circuit. Since the alternator is charging everything else, it is the highest source of potential. Nothing could ever be higher than it, and only a capacitor can be AS high as it. A battery will charge up to around 12.8 - 12.9. It will float higher than that. Measuring your battery right after shutting off the engine or taking it off of the charger, you will see a voltage in the 13's. Now, give your stereo one solid burp. It doesn't have to be all the way up. Just something to draw a little current. Now measure again.
Just a few amps drawn, will take that float charge away (so will just sitting for 24 hrs) as it's just a tiny charge above the resting voltage. You will now see that you're around 12.8v. This is because that's actually the maximum the battery can charge up to. Since that's it's voltage, the source voltage has to drop below this for the battery to begin discharging. So, until the voltage drops that low, the battery is charging. This makes it a parasitic drain on the alternator at all times until it discharges. For this reason, a battery cannot cure voltage drop unless your old battery was just bad and had an excessive parasitic drain. ALL battery banks do is hold the voltage above 12v. They are there to protect your amplifier from being exposed voltage drops where your alternator cannot meet the demand.


---------- Post added at 11:28 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:27 AM ----------


What's an ESR battery...

IDK shit about any of this. :)

I just don't want to have to drive around with a jump box... although... it's not a bad idea anyway.

ESR is Equivelant Series Resistance. A low resistance battery, like a modern dry cell... BUT MEMME DONT ASK ME!!!!! I DONT KNOW WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT

---------- Post added at 11:35 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:28 AM ----------


This is a Quote from another site.. that explains things out really well for you.. in much detail:

Quote is from Cam2xrunner:

Quote:
"After studying a little history on large 1 Farad capacitors in car audio, you'd be amazed that they even sell at all. How useful are they? What do they really do? Will a Cap 'improve' my sound quality? Will it Prevent my lights from dimming? Will it audibly affect my audio system in any way?

Before you get the truth to any of the above questions, chances are, you've probably spent $100 or more on one of these devices. However, let's study a little history regarding this issue.

A long time ago, in a land far away, 2 elves...Ok, Richard Clark & Wayne Harris (Carsound magazine and the inventor of DB Drag, respectively) separately came up with a solution to preventing their lights from dimming.

WHO WERE THESE GUYZ?

As you may know, Richard Clark is one of the founders of autosound2000 Tech Briefs, Carsound magazine, and a published author of the industry of mobile electronics. In SQ competitions, he posted a record of 1234 1st place finishes, and only ended up NOT 1st in his first event. I've heard that he had minor system problems, but judging by his record, he must have corrected it. (evidently, he needed a Capacitor )

Wayne Harris was previously a leader at Rockford Fosgate in their development. Later, in his free time, he created the organization we call DB DRAG. Wayne was the first SQ World Champion from the organization we know as IASCA (International AutoSound Challenge Association).

Both of these gurus are both legends, and considered the leading experts in the field. During their competition days, both guyz came up with a way to assist in the prevention of voltage drops. In SQ competitions, the look of your system is actually more important than the sound, and having your lights NOT dim under high playing levels is a competitive advantage.

As you may know, amplifiers are made up a bank of little capacitors, resistors, etc. What has been common engineering knowledge is that capacitors store energy, and more or bigger ones assist in balancing the power supply.

Wayne came up with the idea of putting several dozen 'little' (approx 100uF) capacitors on a circuit board to 'extend' the power supplies storage. At about the same time, or shortly afterward, Richard came up with the idea of one huge mondo capacitor (I believe it was 800,000uF or 0.8F) to do the job.

Eventually, Richard won. The large cylindrical tubes won over the complicated 48 caps strapped to a circuit board. However, what did this really accomplish? Let's start here:

WHAT IS A CAPACITOR?

Basically, capacitors are an energy storage device. Large, 1 Farad or more
capacitors store energy (electrons) between their plates. Capacitors differ
from batteries because batteries store energy in the form of chemical
energy--and rely on acid and lead plates, as the place of storage. For a more detailed
description of a capacitor, go here:

http://www.eatel.net/~amptech/elecdisc/caraudio.htm (http://www.eatel.net/%7Eamptech/elecdisc/caraudio.htm)

Then on the right hand side, scroll down to CAPACITOR. Keep in mind the use
of capacitors in an audio system.

WHY DO PEOPLE BUY CAPACITORS?

The number 1 reason would have to be because their lights dim when their
system is playing HARD. In car audio, we are told that a capacitor is
designed to prevent the voltage drop associated with your lights dimming.
The number2 reason is that it is rumored to 'improve' sound quality or
'stiffen' the power supply/source.

WHY DO MY LIGHTS DIM?

Headlights brightness is in direct proportion to the source voltage. For
instance, if your car is running, system voltage is ~12.5 -14.4 VOLTS. Your
lights will be much brighter than when your car is turned off--where battery
voltage is ~12V. Most car alternators put out between 75 to 120 amps of
current. When this current draw threshold of the charging system is
exceeded, system voltage will drop as power demands are now shared by the
alternator and the storage devices (battery & cap). We are using battery
reserves beyond this point until the demand lessens

When playing your system really hard. Your lights dim because your
alternator can't keep up it's charging voltage (around 13.5V) and therefore,
demand exceeds output. When this happens, your electronic devices are
dipping into the power storage of the battery. Since the battery stores
power at ~ 12-12.5V, there is a 1.3 to 1.8V drop in voltage available. This
in turn is why your lights dim down.

HOW MUCH POWER DOES A CAPACITOR STORE?

1 Farad = 100 joules or 100W/second
850cca battery = ~2,200,000 farads

For storage purposes, you'd need ~2,200 1 Farad capacitors to equal the energy of your battery.

Due to its impedence (ESR & ESL), a cap's energy is only 50% available. What's worse, is that in order for a 1 Farad cap to discharge, first the alternator output must have maxed out, and the voltage must have dropped around 1.5 volts. But I thought a cap was supposed to prevent that (voltage drop)!!!!!????? Yep, you got the point.


IF A BATTERY = 2,200 CAPS, THEN WHY BUY A (PUNY) CAP?

My question exactly. Marketing is the reason why people buy caps. In many cases, upgrading wiring will help your system get the maximum transfer of current. Once that has been reached, adding a capacitor may have a minor effect on your system. 50W over the course of a second is not a lot of power considering an amplifier may draw 2000W to put out 1400 watts. Let's look at the situation from a resources standpoint.

Alternator 80 amps
Car accessories (minus stereo) 40 amps
A large Car Audio system (DRAWS ) ~200 amps AT FULL OUTPUT

In this case, you have 240 amps of draw, but only 80 amps of current from the alternator. In your case, you need 160 amps x 12 volts or or let's say 1920 watts of energy. Since a cap stores 50W, how much of a difference do you think it's going to make? A cap is basically a peashooter. W+e need a Howitzer cannon here, to do the job well.

Also, Once a cap is discharged, where does it get it's power from? The alternator, which is already overloaded. Once a cap is discharged, it's worthless. Like SWEZ says, ***12539;.The cap already shot its wad, an does limp til recharged***12539; I***30693; not so certain I will allow him to babysit my kids, but you get the drift. (I never said it quiet like that... and oh...I'm great with kids!)

SO, WHAT IS A CAPACITOR GOOD FOR?

1. Audio Jewelry- impress chicks with large cylindrical shiny thingy
2. Extra weight in winter time
3. A very POOR... BUT expensive distribution block
4. A projectile in the event of a crash
5. Rolling pin--for cooking purposes
6. A neat thing to tell your friend, "..Hey man, lick the top of this..


Please do not try # 6. New hairstyles are always refreshing, but if you are wearing railroad tracks across your teeth, you might have one big filling after it***30196; over.

HOW CAN CAPACITORS IMPROVE SOUND QUALITY?

They can't. Sound quality is not dependant upon the presence of large bulky 1 Farad capacitors. How many 1 Farad Capacitors do you think the Boston Pops, Aerosmith, or Snoop dog use in the recording studio?

IN A NUTSHELL.......

When Richard, our fearless inventor, became World renown for winning every competition under the sun, people began copying what he did. Soon, every 'serious' competitor had a 'stiffening' capacitor--not to be confused with the 'loosening' capacitor.

WHY?

In the late 80s, people began sticking out their tongue when dunking the basketball because Michael Jordan did. Did sticking out your tongue improve your dunking ability? Same here with adding a capacitor to your electrical system.

STILL A GLUTTON FOR MORE PUNISHMENT?

Here's the Original Cap Debate.

http://www.carsound.com/ubb/Archives...-1-000307.html

Phoenix Gold's marketing guru had just posted information on how their Powercore (basically the Alumapro CAP15 in a Phoenix shell) had both stabilized their voltage and improved the sound quality. Richard called him on it (all in another post) and the marketing geek was unable to quantify any of the conditions that resulted in the voltage being HELD at 14.2V and the 'improved' sound quality.

Please do not read every stinking post as valid. There are a lot of people that have had the efficacy of capacitors inbred to their minds, and were not (and still not) convinced in the futility of a 1 Farad storage device.

In a final note, Richard relayed a quote regarding battcaps ( www.battcap.net (http://www.battcap.net/) ) as, "..The audio industry is the only place i know of where you can publish specs that show your product is useless and still be able to sell them------and whats worse is that technically ignorant people will argue against the math!!!!!!!..............RC.." when referring to the product. This also relates to most digital readout capacitors, and I wish my Archie Bunker skills could have said it better myself. "

[Memme]

Yeah, that makes sense...

I used to be a circuit board technician at HP...

I've worked with circuit boards extensively, and have a general idea of what capacitors do... I wasn't really thinking about them in terms of car audio... had no idea what their purpose would be... but yeah... if I was going to spend $100 on something, it would be another battery...

[csramotorsports]

Yeah, that makes sense...

I used to be a circuit board technician at HP...

I've worked with circuit boards extensively, and have a general idea of what capacitors do... I wasn't really thinking about them in terms of car audio... had no idea what their purpose would be... but yeah... if I was going to spend $100 on something, it would be another battery...

You can even take your alt in to get rewound and maybe get some more amperage out of it... just a thought.

[Shigun]

csramotorsports......you once again disregarded everything said, spouted out some boasting, and then gave 1) incorrect information, and 2) information that is nowhere near proof and even worse is still incorrect and contradictory to your own statement prior for this discussion (voltage draw versus.....sound quality, with only a brief and incorrect bit about voltage drop, again assuming that the capacitor completely discharges. Seriously, did YOU even read it?)

A capacitor can have be a source of potential that is equal to the battery, closer. This means it draws the main power from the cap. On top of that, the subwoofer hitting should not draw so much to COMPLETELY discharge the capacitor. I don't know where you get that misconception from. Because it does not completely discharge, it doesn't strain the battery with the trickle charge, therefore it does not stress the alt/battery by forcing a pull of energy that is not available.

The article you posted as proof is in mainly in relation to capacitors and sound qualiy, and not a single person here has argued such. Capacitors and voltage system drain: as the article states Richard did EXACTLY WHAT WE ARE SAYING, adding a capacitor, to help with voltage system drain.

But, I digress, as I'm no longer writing for your benefit. You will once again disregard all I write, make up some laughable experience that is supposed to bolster your gross lack of knowledge, and then go on to further miseducated people.

To anybody else in the thread, ignore csramotorsports opinion, as 1) he can't keep straight what he is arguing about ("caps are useless, caps are good in the amp"), 2) has no idea what the fuck he is talking about (seriously, my mind is still reeling over farads being a measure of electrons...), and 3) will refuse to listen to logic from people with far more experience than he, who can provide actual proof, not contradictory articles.

Should probably add that I'm not going to respond to this anymore. I'm tired of arguing with a deaf idiot.

[Memme]

Sticky? Lol.

[csramotorsports]

csramotorsports......you once again disregarded everything said, spouted out some boasting, and then gave 1) incorrect information, and 2) information that is nowhere near proof and even worse is still incorrect and contradictory to your own statement prior for this discussion (voltage draw versus.....sound quality, with only a brief and incorrect bit about voltage drop, again assuming that the capacitor completely discharges. Seriously, did YOU even read it?)

A capacitor can have be a source of potential that is equal to the battery, closer. (WHAT!??)This means it draws the main power from the cap. On top of that, the subwoofer hitting should not draw so much to COMPLETELY discharge the capacitor. I don't know where you get that misconception from. Because it does not completely discharge, it doesn't strain the battery with the trickle charge, therefore it does not stress the alt/battery by forcing a pull of energy that is not available.

The article you posted as proof is in mainly in relation to capacitors and sound qualiy, and not a single person here has argued such. Capacitors and voltage system drain: as the article states Richard did EXACTLY WHAT WE ARE SAYING, adding a capacitor, to help with voltage system drain.

But, I digress, as I'm no longer writing for your benefit. You will once again disregard all I write, make up some laughable experience that is supposed to bolster your gross lack of knowledge, and then go on to further miseducated people.

To anybody else in the thread, ignore csramotorsports opinion, as 1) he can't keep straight what he is arguing about ("caps are useless, caps are good in the amp"), 2) has no idea what the fuck he is talking about (seriously, my mind is still reeling over farads being a measure of electrons...), and 3) will refuse to listen to logic from people with far more experience than he, who can provide actual proof, not contradictory articles.

Should probably add that I'm not going to respond to this anymore. I'm tired of arguing with a deaf idiot.

LMFAO!!!! YOU DONT MAKE SENSE HOMEBOYYYYYY hahahaha. And Subwuferzzzz " hitting " don't cause any kind of strain on anything...it's called an amplifier...not the subwoofer.


CLIFF NOTES on Shigun's posts.


IM A FUCKIN IDIOT

---------- Post added at 01:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:36 PM ----------

Here's an exact quote from "how stuff works" on what a Farad is.

A capacitor's storage potential, or capacitance, is measured in units called farads. A 1-farad capacitor can store one coulomb (coo-lomb) of charge at 1 volt. A coulomb is 6.25e18 (6.25 * 10^18, or 6.25 billion billion) electrons (http://science.howstuffworks.com/electron-info.htm). One amp represents a rate of electron flow of 1 coulomb of electrons per second, so a 1-farad capacitor can hold 1 amp-second of electrons at 1 volt.

---------- Post added at 01:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:38 PM ----------

soo hmmmmm...you're mind is still "reeling" over my statement that Farads are a measurent of electrons huh??? really??? okay smart guy

---------- Post added at 01:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:39 PM ----------

Richard didn't come to the conclusion that a cap helps with ANYTHING!!! jeebus are you retarded or what



---------- Post added at 01:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:41 PM ----------

Please enlighten me all mighty idiot, as to what a farad is then.

---------- Post added at 01:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:42 PM ----------

SO, WHAT IS A CAPACITOR GOOD FOR?

1. Audio Jewelry- impress chicks with large cylindrical shiny thingy
2. Extra weight in winter time
3. A very POOR... BUT expensive distribution block
4. A projectile in the event of a crash
5. Rolling pin--for cooking purposes
6. A neat thing to tell your friend, "..Hey man, lick the top of this..

[Iam99x]

Memme, with your setup you don't need a capacitor. Your wiring is perfectly fine for that amp. Just because the max wattage is 525 or whatever you said, it's not going to pull that consistently. You have a simple wiring problem before the head unit.

No need to get technical, although there is a serious case of retardedness in this thread.

I had this issue twice. Once was the 12v switch power wire and once the ground wire. Both were on the head unit's wire harness. I replaced the wires, and it worked like a charm.

[csramotorsports]

csramotorsports......you once again disregarded everything said, spouted out some boasting, and then gave 1) incorrect information, and 2) information that is nowhere near proof and even worse is still incorrect and contradictory to your own statement prior for this discussion (voltage draw versus.....sound quality, with only a brief and incorrect bit about voltage drop, again assuming that the capacitor completely discharges. Seriously, did YOU even read it?)

A capacitor can have be a source of potential that is equal to the battery, closer(IM AN IDIOT). This means it draws the main power(MAIN POWER?, IM AN IDIOT X2) from the cap. On top of that, the subwoofer hitting should not draw so much to COMPLETELY discharge the capacitor(SUBWOOFERS DON'T DRAW ANYTHING..IM AN IDIOT X3). I don't know where you get that misconception from. Because it does not completely discharge, it doesn't strain the battery with the trickle charge(TRICKLE CHARGE? IM AN IDIOT X4), therefore it does not stress the alt/battery by forcing a pull of energy that is not available. (right, it doesn't do ANYTHING, im an idiot x5)

The article you posted as proof is in mainly in relation to capacitors and sound qualiy(no it's not, im an idiot x6), and not a single person here has argued such. Capacitors and voltage system drain: as the article states Richard did EXACTLY WHAT WE ARE SAYING, adding a capacitor, to help with voltage system drain)Im an idiot x7).

But, I digress, as I'm no longer writing for your benefit. You will once again disregard all I write, make up some laughable experience that is supposed to bolster your gross lack of knowledge, and then go on to further miseducated people.

To anybody else in the thread, ignore csramotorsports opinion, as 1) he can't keep straight what he is arguing about ("caps are useless, caps are good in the amp"(caps are good in the amp?? what?? im an idiot x8)), 2) has no idea what the fuck he is talking about (seriously, my mind is still reeling over farads being a measure of electrons..(im a super idiot for this x9).), and 3) will refuse to listen to logic from people with far more experience than he, who can provide actual proof, not contradictory articles.(im an idiot x10)

Should probably add that I'm not going to respond to this anymore. I'm tired of arguing with a deaf idiot.


Ok there are your cliff notes too what you said

---------- Post added at 01:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:49 PM ----------


Memme, with your setup you don't need a capacitor. Your wiring is perfectly fine for that amp. Just because the max wattage is 525 or whatever you said, it's not going to pull that consistently. You have a simple wiring problem before the head unit.

No need to get technical, although there is a serious case of retardedness in this thread.

I had this issue twice. Once was the 12v switch power wire and once the ground wire. Both were on the head unit's wire harness. I replaced the wires, and it worked like a charm.

If 525 is max wattage chances are it will NEVER put that much out unless it got struck by lightning .

[Shigun]

Ok, look, csramotorsports, I'm going to level with you like this.

Richard Clark was discussing large farad capacitors with ESR ratings which, ultimately, rendered them useless for the purpose of use in this case (His capacitor ESR rating was approximately 0.017, versus the ESR rating today of capacitors having an ESR in the range of 0.001, so their efficiency is greatly increased). If you go looking around you will find that statement backed up. On top of that, his whole discussion was for using capacitors to keep a consistent 14v, and he even stated that the capacitor was doing it's job to offset the load of the sound system from the battery/alternator. On top of that, he added that the battery itself provides a load to the system, but you don't people saying that you should remove the battery from the loop, do you? You can pick and choose what you want to point out, but if you are not going to discuss the whole scenario, don't discuss anything at all.

On top of that, you are pointing out an article that was written in the early 90's (or before). Just because something was true then, does not make it true now. We as collective humans knew the earth was flat, but that was not an explicit truth. Because the poor quality capacitors then did not prove to be efficient for everything that Richard wanted, does not mean they are not able to do such now. Are we going to get a constant 14v rail? No, of course not. Are you going to be able to offset the load of the battery and alternator with a properly sized capacitor, yes, absolutely.

Farads are a measure of capacitance, which can be converted to coulombs, which can be converted to a measure of electrons. Farads are not a measure of electrons. That would be the same thing as saying Ohms is a measure of amps (V=A*R). You can get the information through calculations, but it's not an explicit measure.

[csramotorsports]

Call me Daddy

[jstancel]

There is way too much "off topic info" for me to read so if my reply has already been discussed, sorry.

My suggestion:
Don't buy anything to "fix" it yet. Check your wiring again. Make sure the insulation is not compromised and grounding out on the body. Check your terminals. If they look nasty then clean them. Drive over to any of the car part chain stores and have them check the battery and alternator.

[Jcatz]

Lets see what the astronauts have to say about this... Cause my cock is visible from space!!!!

[Memme]

Battery died, and alternator is toast... battery was replaced... alternator is being replaced tomorrow...

If I hook the subs back up and it happens again... FUCK SUBS.

That will be my response.

BTW... 1 year old Battery and Alternator...

Note to self: DO NOT BUY CHEAP PARTS ON LINE...

The "Lifetime" Warranty on Alternators and shit at Autozone? Worth the extra cash...

[Iam99x]

I promise you it's not the audio's fault. Autozone warranties ftw.

[Memme]

I certainly hope not... but it was shit timing if not!

[Iam99x]

Yeah. I was running a total of around 2,500w RMS in my S13. It had a RB25...not sure about the amperage on the alternator, but it never had a problem with running that much power. I would slightly get some dash lights dimming when the bass hit while the car was at idle. When I had a cap, it didn't do that.