Compressor surge or not????

[1800DialKyle]

Ok well me and some buddies are having this on going argument about compressor surge and BOV's. I say that there is no such thing as a fluttering so to say BOV. They say there is. I am not 100% on this, just what I think. So I wanted to make this argument public. You tell me. Here are some vids of what they call BOV flutter.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=NEZUk-t44C0

http://youtube.com/watch?v=M1oX4EI2ULQ


Again I am not tring to bash anyone. I just wanted more opinions and in-sight to this argument.

Discuss....

[JJ Alfano]

well, the videos say its a BOV, the second video shutters sounds like he didnt hit full boost, while the first one, sounds like compressor surge IMO, but then again, the video says BOV and HKS does have a kind of shutter to it. And a BOV is a pretty cheap addition to a turbo set up to keep your turbo from blowing up.

[1800DialKyle]

well, the videos say its a BOV, the second video shutters sounds like he didnt hit full boost, while the first one, sounds like compressor surge IMO, but then again, the video says BOV and HKS does have a kind of shutter to it. And a BOV is a pretty cheap addition to a turbo set up to keep your turbo from blowing up.
I have the brand new hks ssqv and it sounds nothing like that.

[v-empire]

ssq has different valves, open sequentially or at the same time depending on boost level and vaccuum. the ssq is actually designed for the sr20det originally to work appropriately with blow thru and blow off set up with the wire maf style.

if you place you bov at a different location, turn up the boost, you may hear the fluttering. you bov works perfectly and on top of that, its adjustable. but the new ones arent.

and it will sound different on a different car also.

also, i ve notice the bov's sound different in different regions of the country, as we travel with the cars. i think atmospheric pressure has something to do with the air blowing off or the valves opening at different speeds, valve hardness, or maybe i am just paranoid that the darn thing is not set right, leaking..etc. haha.

[flip]

ssq has different valves, open sequentially or at the same time depending on boost level and vaccuum. the ssq is actually designed for the sr20det originally to work appropriately with blow thru and blow off set up with the wire maf style.

if you place you bov at a different location, turn up the boost, you may hear the fluttering. you bov works perfectly and on top of that, its adjustable. but the new ones arent.

and it will sound different on a different car also.

also, i ve notice the bov's sound different in different regions of the country, as we travel with the cars. i think atmospheric pressure has something to do with the air blowing off or the valves opening at different speeds, valve hardness, or maybe i am just paranoid that the darn thing is not set right, leaking..etc. haha.

Correct. I have an HKS SSQ on my STi. Sequential means that its got two valves. Just as Dave said, if I don't reach full boost, sometimes I will get a little bit of a flutter. There is no blow off valve that is MEANT to flutter like this. It is in reality not functioning as it should if it flutters at full boost.

I started a thread about the exact same thing on another forum and got to this conclusion.

From what I understand I don't think that a flutter at full boost would be a good thing because its sending a shock wave back to the turbo every time it flutters which can harm a turbo. <- Correct me if I'm wrong!

[v-empire]

flutters in between the valves instead of going back.
there are other bovs with similar systems.
but you dont hear of it much cos HKS is just famous for it.

[flip]

flutters in between the valves instead of going back.
there are other bovs with similar systems.
but you dont hear of it much cos HKS is just famous for it.

But the first valve is still opening and closing which would stop the release of pressure causing a surge, no?

[v-empire]

first valve is stiffer than the second. second valve flutters

[homeslicej2]

good stuff...continue to learn me up.

[v-empire]

good stuff...continue to learn me up.

i bought an hks twin plate clutch.

jesus loves donkey kong.

on an sr20 or ca18 or a ka24:
my hypothesis is that a
Blow thru larger maf and bov settings sometimes cause the car to have a hard start because of initial vaccuum pressure from torque start of the motor is lower than a V6 OR V8.

[omgtofu]

the one that "flutters" is the hks race type 2. rolla, i was thinkin just the same stuff V is talkin about, if the pressure were to enter then BOV then be trapped inside it while the exit flutters open and closed. and besides, there are countless jdm insider and option videos with these japanese dudes driving cars worth 150 thousand dollars that have BOV's with the flutter noise. im pretty sure they wouldnt get a malfunctioning BOV for their car with that kinda money invested...

like this one for example..
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6305928891821078354&q=jdm+insider&total=22&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=9

[flip]

the one that "flutters" is the hks race type 2. rolla, i was thinkin just the same stuff V is talkin about, if the pressure were to enter then BOV then be trapped inside it while the exit flutters open and closed. and besides, there are countless jdm insider and option videos with these japanese dudes driving cars worth 150 thousand dollars that have BOV's with the flutter noise. im pretty sure they wouldnt get a malfunctioning BOV for their car with that kinda money invested...

like this one for example..
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6305928891821078354&q=jdm+insider&total=22&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=9

Yeah, you make a good point. It does sound kinda cool too. So what BOV is this, why/how does it make the flutter noise, and explain why its not causing surge.

[JDori]

on an sr20 or ca18 or a ka24:
my hypothesis is that a
Blow thru larger maf and bov settings sometimes cause the car to have a hard start because of initial vaccuum pressure from torque start of the motor is lower than a V6 OR V8.

so ppl who keep the stock maf usually dont have start up problems.


and to the op:
1st vid sounds like straight up no Bov all CS.
2nd sounds like he did hit full boost so u hear the BOV and CS, sounds like it was maybe about half boost which for him was prolly 10-12psi


the one that "flutters" is the hks race type 2. rolla, i was thinkin just the same stuff V is talkin about, if the pressure were to enter then BOV then be trapped inside it while the exit flutters open and closed. and besides, there are countless jdm insider and option videos with these japanese dudes driving cars worth 150 thousand dollars that have BOV's with the flutter noise. im pretty sure they wouldnt get a malfunctioning BOV for their car with that kinda money invested...

like this one for example..
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6305928891821078354&q=jdm+insider&total=22&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=9

yea i've notices alot of videos like the one u posted, and wonder what bov it is. and if CS is really a bad killer, b/c i hear it so much on the JDM vids


it confuses me

[FlatWoodsMonster]

I have the brand new hks ssqv and it sounds nothing like that.

Racing BOV and the regular HKS are two different BOV'ssesesesese. Miss u blood.

[v-empire]

he is white.

you are black.

but i guess your blood color is the same.

eat cheese, makes your farts smell alike.

[FlatWoodsMonster]

he is white.

you are black.

but i guess your blood color is the same.

eat cheese, makes your farts smell alike.

HAHA

[omgtofu]

word up to DAT!

...same here...

[Cameron.]

Blow-off valve myth #2: The fluttering sound is usually believed to be the blow-off valve. In reality, it is caused by a blow-off valve, but does not come from the blow-off valve. If the spring pre-load is adjusted too tight, this will cause compressor surge, which as described above is the sound of air exiting the turbo.
Compressor surge: You can think or surge as the point at which the compressor blades begin to “slip” in the air, losing their pumping ability, much like an aircraft wing loses its lift when it stalls. In a turbo, this happens in a series of bursts, as the blades slip, then bite, slip then bite. This sets up a pulsing wave in the turbo piping and explains why the sound has that characteristic “flutter”.
The interesting thing about compressor surge is that it occurs much more readily at low turbo shaft speeds. At these low shaft speeds, on road cars this is generally between 2000 and 3000 RPM, compressor surge is not much of a problem, as the loads generated by the surge are miniscule compared to what the turbo encounters at high boost. However, if surge occurs at high RPM and boost, it is possible to reduce the turbo life and/or damage the compressor.

[omgtofu]

thank you for reiterating that. we know what it is. the debate is whether or not an HKS race type BOV is designed to do this, because like i stated, big ballers from japan land run their expensive dorimons with blowoff valves that sound that way. we are pretty sure its designed to do this.

[Cameron.]

whatever i was bored and felt like that was good reading.. and y do you like the flutter sound???

[ThatS13Guy]

i feel smarter already being in the presence of dave and his vast areas of knowledge lol

[doctorsars]

whatever i was bored and felt like that was good reading.. and y do you like the flutter sound???

Because it's orgasmic.

[Z U L8R]

fuck that shit, that first video was compressor surge, kiss my fluttering ass asian dave hahaha. and no offense if you use it but i hate hks ssqv, sounds like a squeeky dog toy.

[GriffinW]

I saw you roll by a pleasant hill last saturday dave. It got kinda ricey though, i left early.

what BOV do you use?

[Z U L8R]

been using a blitz on the throttle body side for the longest, monday we added an ole school greddy type s on the charge pipe. haven't driven it yet so i dunno what it's gonna sound like with 2 different bovs. i just don't wanna hear ANY fluttering though lol >_<

now i think i'm either gonna sneak up on peeps, or they're gonna be like "there's a primer color'd airplane riding next to us WTF @@??"

[GriffinW]

let me know how you like the greddy compared to the blitz. I think i going to get a Sard R2D2, just to be different. Ive listened to a few on youtube and they sound nice, and havent heard any fluttering with them.

[v-empire]

fuck that shit, that first video was compressor surge, kiss my fluttering ass asian dave hahaha. and no offense if you use it but i hate hks ssqv, sounds like a squeeky dog toy.

oh, i m sorry, am i suppose to watch the videos?

his question was about flutter like bov's.

we battle tonight. i ll bring the black widow, u bring your cheap cue stick.
we order fried calamari and dong bang beer.

[babowc]

ive heard greddy type s (purple top bov) flutter.

or is it rs..
i dunno shiiiiiiot.

[Z U L8R]

i'm using them both. 2 bov's one before the fmic one after, one's a blitz the other's a type s, the purple guy ole school joint. i had it on my sr and i liked it. i did have to set it pretty stiff so it wouldn't die after letting off since non blow through set up no likey atsmospheric bov, so if i made 1 or 2 psi it would surge (flutter) a little. but when it hit full boost i liked the sound. maybe i could set the greddy loose and the blitz tight. then instead of sequential springs i got sequential bovs rofl. 2 bov FTW! HAHAHA

i <3 Dave. that roll cage in the skyline's coming along nicely. sexy sexy =] those seats are spiffy too, buddy club +1

i r see joo this weekend. lots of beer, and hopefully lots of bang bang bang......just not /w u kk thx ^_^ GG and all that L337nE55 h4x0r shyt

[GriffinW]

Ive never heard of someone running two BOV's, you really dont want any flutter do ya!

I would think that if you set the first BOV soft that it would let alot of the air out before the second one...

[flip]

Primer'd airplanes ftw...

[Z U L8R]

that authentic turbine sound FTMFW!!!!!!!!!

[jiminycricket]

I have a HKS bypass valve. Recirced into the intake.. cept I do hear some flutter if I let off at maybe half boost. but hell, who can hear anything with a tial 38 wastedump anyway :(

[Z U L8R]

38MM IS TOO SMALL >_< hehehehe

[GriffinW]

hey jim did you get that turbo clocked yet?

[doctorsars]

Yeah, you make a good point. It does sound kinda cool too. So what BOV is this, why/how does it make the flutter noise, and explain why its not causing surge.

No one really answered this directly D:

Unless I missed it, but I am curious

[omgtofu]

ya adam said its the hks race type bov. and i still believe its all BOV noise and not comp surge.

[doctorsars]

oh okay then.

[Lone_Wolf]

tial bov vs synapse bov

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQAcVgKPXG4

[Cameron.]

omg do we have to go over this again....? ill brb........ -.-






idk if i like these guys ways of dealing.. cause there advertising ways are rediculous, they have to slam other products that have been around for way longer saying theres are better and make it look like they are not any good... for instance...

Bashing TiAL,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQAcVgKPXG4

Synapse Call out...:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-JTf...eature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-JTfgpFKrM&feature=related)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sICvMXjtkGM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhcHSh_adnA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OakCvrPcD7w

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQl5rmoTfQo

(watch em all there real short, those are the vids that told me synapse is full of Poo)

There experiments are not representing the same variable, one is prolly running too tight of a spring, meant for 13 psi (tial) and synapse, using a looser (7psi) and they are not even boosting... a BOV, is always going to give a little flutter under low boost, but once it gets passed its spring pressure, it will react as it should... to tell you the truth i am going with TiAL.. i have never heard a bad thing about there BOV's and its only the dumbasses who get too tight of a spring and run less boost then what the spring is rated for, that complain about them...

Plus Synapse is produced in China :P..

Tial is American Made

Dont get me wrong they are a good product, but there sneaky marketing ways have turned me against them...


P.S listen to the first pull on the 2nd run, the one where the screen goes black from watching the first run... He realized he got into to much boost and the tial acted as it should.. and when they were revving the Synchronic they actually got into boost... its rediculous to actually believe this garbage...


ANother thing, that wasnt even Syncronics video..

here is the true creator of the Video..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXqgT...eature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXqgTtHECnk&feature=related)

Synchronic prolly just said, hey I see your Bashing on tial, lemme give you a free synchronic and you be my little puppet...


Also listen what the Guy says about the Tial

"Running a 12 pound spring, Surges at 5 7 11psi, but after 12 psi it is fine.. idk why?"


See exhibit A idiots who dont know why it is surging, hey buddy your spring is for 12 pounds minimum, even if you are building boost and let off at 7, its going to do it, why? because your spring is meant for 12 pounds not 7, and also if he dont want it to surge, i might suggest running something a little less than a GT30R, cause he aint hitting full boost til 3800 prolly... get one that hits full boost more suitable for a flat 4.. also if you dont feel like running your car hard one day for economy, dont get in to your boost, and it wont even give you any problems.. PLus, just revving and blowing off sitting still is going to give surge, cause your not building full boost, but who revvs there BOV for a video sitting still??? Fanboy ricers.... idiots... NO DUHHHHHHH DUMASSES!.... /Rant

[FlatWoodsMonster]

LOOK LOOK LOOK I FINALLY FOUND THE VID WITH THE HKS RACE BOV.... AND YES ITS IN ALL CAPS SO Y"ALL WILL SEE THIS AND END THIS DUMB THREAD. J/K

http://youtube.com/watch?v=bRR_aisRgPI

[ThatS13Guy]

LOOK LOOK LOOK I FINALLY FOUND THE VID WITH THE HKS RACE BOV.... AND YES ITS IN ALL CAPS SO Y"ALL WILL SEE THIS AND END THIS DUMB THREAD. J/K

http://youtube.com/watch?v=bRR_aisRgPI


of course you would post something like this

[MOOREOFSTEPHEN]

dhumps as a greddy bov and when he doesn't hit full boost it just flutters. I have an old ARC BOV... it doesn't just blow off... it flutters the entire time. So I don't get why your saying they don't have these kind?

I maybe confused on what you guys are trying to prove but I'm not sure. I'll come back from work later tonight and read up

[Cameron.]

I <3 that Video..

that flutter is almost tempting enough to not want a BOV.

lol

JK.. but its still beastly

[GriffinW]

650 AWD HP, damn.

[Eric-RPS13-]

Ive never heard of someone running two BOV's, you really dont want any flutter do ya!

I would think that if you set the first BOV soft that it would let alot of the air out before the second one...
I know someone with 3 bovs...
no shit, it's a NA-t 2JZ in a old GS300 like mine, he drifts, name is Jeff Kipe, lives in SC. He did a home made twin turbo set up on it, one bov off each charge pipe I believe and then this really wild one at the TB. It sounds freaking evil. well I can't find a video of the bovs noise that's clear. I'm sure you've seen him at some events down here in years past

I love Tsuchiya the sweater and khakis with the green gloves lol

[FlatWoodsMonster]

I know someone with 3 bovs...
no shit, it's a NA-t 2JZ in a old GS300 like mine, he drifts, name is Jeff Kipe, lives in SC. He did a home made twin turbo set up on it, one bov off each charge pipe I believe and then this really wild one at the TB. It sounds freaking evil. well I can't find a video of the bovs noise that's clear. I'm sure you've seen him at some events down here in years past

I love Tsuchiya the sweater and khakis with the green gloves lol
Ummmm over kill much???:confused:

[Eric-RPS13-]

Ummmm over kill much???:confused:
the way he has it set up, it's actually really bad ass, but ya it seems like overkill.

[FlatWoodsMonster]

the way he has it set up, it's actually really bad ass, but ya it seems like overkill.

I got 9.

BOSS NGA

[Infinite]

flutter is when the valve opens and closes rapidly. the resulting fluttering will cause compressor surge.

the hks ssqv is slow to react, on low and high boost setups there is always a degree of compressor surge before the blow off valve opens (about 2 seconds from what i've seen)

someone just make a fucking video of compressor surge... its simple.
unhook the vacuum line from your blow off valve... cut on camera. drive

that simple

there isnt one single blow off valve that will always make the sound of compressor surge. because all you are hearing is the air backflowing through the blades of the compressor wheel, like a chuffing sound

[ThatS13Guy]

well i have the special NA bov.....only three made in the world

[FlatWoodsMonster]

flutter is when the valve opens and closes rapidly. the resulting fluttering will cause compressor surge.

the hks ssqv is slow to react, on low and high boost setups there is always a degree of compressor surge before the blow off valve opens (about 2 seconds from what i've seen)

someone just make a fucking video of compressor surge... its simple.
unhook the vacuum line from your blow off valve... cut on camera. drive

that simple

there isnt one single blow off valve that will always make the sound of compressor surge. because all you are hearing is the air backflowing through the blades of the compressor wheel, like a chuffing sound

Then WTF is this?????

http://youtube.com/watch?v=bRR_aisRgPI

I mean fuck man its a fully built car. When I was in Japan I herd hundreds of bov' that sounded like surge but guess what no surge.

[s14.5gonewide]

alot of high whp turbo cars dont run bov.

[Infinite]

Then WTF is this?????

http://youtube.com/watch?v=bRR_aisRgPI

I mean fuck man its a fully built car. When I was in Japan I herd hundreds of bov' that sounded like surge but guess what no surge.
that r34 doesnt use a bov.

[v-empire]

http://funnyjoke.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/baby-bath1.jpg

[Cash]

Baptismo!


flutter is when the valve opens and closes rapidly. the resulting fluttering will cause compressor surge.

the hks ssqv is slow to react, on low and high boost setups there is always a degree of compressor surge before the blow off valve opens (about 2 seconds from what i've seen)

someone just make a fucking video of compressor surge... its simple.
unhook the vacuum line from your blow off valve... cut on camera. drive

that simple

there isnt one single blow off valve that will always make the sound of compressor surge. because all you are hearing is the air backflowing through the blades of the compressor wheel, like a chuffing sound

Dead on. I have the HKS SSQV and it flutters a bit when I only boost a couple pounds. The sound is much different from compressor surge. I was actually driving one day and it sounded like my bov wasn't functioning, so I boosted 6 or 7psi and heard actual compressor surge. Pulled over and popped my hood. The vacuum line had come off somehow.

Anyway, compressor surge and a little bit of fluttering along with blow off sounds very different. Do like Will said and try it. Just take your vacuum line off.



Oh, and to clear things up.. Is compressor surge bad for your turbo or not? I've heard some people say it is, and some say it isn't. It makes sense that it would put more wear on the turbo, but I'd still like a clear answer. I know WRC guys don't use bov's, but they also replace their turbos all the time..

Guilty pleasure: I like the sound of compressor surge. It gives me a boner.

[FlatWoodsMonster]

that r34 doesnt use a bov.

:confused:OMG yes it does I saw the car at the Tokyo autosalon 07 and it uses the HKS race type. With all the time and money invested in this car I think they would have the brains to install a BOV. Oh and you did not explain this vid ether and dont say it doesnt use a bov because I have seen this car too.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=qHzXFUghyK4
Later QD

[Cash]

stay up, homie.

CC

[v-empire]

u guys are smart.


haha..

anyways, they dont use bov on wrc on some cars because, yes they have tons of turbos to replace and they dont care.
second, they have anti lag system on their cars,
third, it helps with lag reduction and spool up, and they are always on the throttle.

it will shorten the life of your turbos for street cars.

[Cash]

Thanks for the info! When I get a new turbo (not anytime soon) I'm going to take the vacuum line of my bov and run my t25 around for as long as possible. Once again, compressor surge = boner for me. It sounds like penguin sex.

I watched a top gear episode the other day that had a car that never went into production, but it had anti lag and no bov. It was pretty awesome. I wish I could remember what it was. Some company that only builds race cars. They just built this car to demo their capabilities I suppose.

[v-empire]

it made noise, like...BANG BANG!!!??

hah!

[Cash]

i think it was more of a... pop wiiizzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz ning ning ning ning. and then a fart noise

[Infinite]

yes, compressor surge is bad.

when the shaft tries to stop turning it puts a lateral load on the wheel and shaft... it wears out the thrust bearing prematurely

[Cash]

your mom wore out my thrust bearing last night. :D

[v-empire]

lmao....

[FlatWoodsMonster]

yes, compressor surge is bad.

when the shaft tries to stop turning it puts a lateral load on the wheel and shaft... it wears out the thrust bearing prematurely

You never replied to the HKS GTR having a BOV. Or the other vid i posted.

[jiminycricket]

ok everyone, sorry this thread is old but I have to bring it back. I watched the GTR video that theUndersteerKing posted with the HKS Race BOV. And after installing my new internal wastegate turbo that spools a lot faster than the old one, I am hearing the exact same flutter sound as that GTR. I mean EXACTLY the same flutter sound.
This is the blowoff valve I have: In fact, it is the HKS Race BYPASS Valve recirced to my intake.
http://i6.tinypic.com/7xmgn6x.jpgso i'm just wondering you guys, when yal are talking about the HKS Race BOV, are you talking about the one I have, or a different one?
I am kind of contemplating whether or not mine is CS or not, but I think if it was, I would have found out by now. And when I loosen the spring rate, it still makes the same noise when letting off between 2 - 3.5k rpm with medium to low loads

[Cameron.]

this is the one they are talking about, the type 2. and i think that the GTR in understeer kings vid was running w/o a BOV.

heres the one they are talkin about

http://www.autocarparts.com/imagemagic.php?img=0d3K1cvcorC7vM27vLSXstXd3bjZzp% 2B7sLXIybG5l9jW0A%3D%3D&w=370&h=284&page=popup

[FlatWoodsMonster]

this is the one they are talking about, the type 2. and i think that the GTR in understeer kings vid was running w/o a BOV.

heres the one they are talkin about

http://www.autocarparts.com/imagemagic.php?img=0d3K1cvcorC7vM27vLSXstXd3bjZzp% 2B7sLXIybG5l9jW0A%3D%3D&w=370&h=284&page=popup

OMG!!!! I HAVE SEEN THE CAR IN REAL LIFE IT HAS A BOV!!!!!!!!!! but yes that is the bov we are talking about.

[Cameron.]

lol thats why i said i think, that just sounded more like turbo flutter than a BOV, so yea.

[jiminycricket]

maybe they work similarly? I mean I Know one's a bypass and one's a blow off but they are both racing and they are both HKS so who knows. hahha

[FlatWoodsMonster]

lol thats why i said i think, that just sounded more like turbo flutter than a BOV, so yea.

LOL Im just messin.

[napoleon]

No offense meant, but did anyone offer a reasonable explanation? I didnt want to check the other 7 pages.

[jiminycricket]

ya for real haha. I hate this issue, because it's usually a matter of preference, and computer audio and video clips do no justice

[FlatWoodsMonster]

ya for real haha. I hate this issue, because it's usually a matter of preference, and computer audio and video clips do no justice
http://www.math.vanderbilt.edu/~ugsem/pinocchio.PNG

[Cameron.]

LIES!!! THERE ALLL LIES!!!!!!