tubo ka engine

[osiriskidd]

i need some information as this'll be the first car i'm going to turbo myself.

i've been reading some walkthroughs, but i'll need a list of things that are mandatory, as well as how much they're going to cost. Also, does anyone know how much psi can be run on stock internals as opposed to forged internals (and what brand for forged). i was thinking 5-6psi stock and hoping for 9-12 forged.

i know its asking alot but bare with me:cheers:

[I RON DON KEY]

Is it really worth getting a turbo ka? I have another friend kind of the the

same situation. getting a sr20det or a rebuilt ka. i would go for the sr20det;

the money spent rebuilding can go towards that.

[JDori]

turbo ka is really tourqe.......

[jiminycricket]

Ok guys, and this goes for any other folks who are thinking or wondering about the KA24DET comonly known as KAT. I have a simple setup with a Jim Wolf ECU and 370 injectors making approximately 260 at 8 psi. I have stock internals as well. What you're going to want to do is read up on different set up (as there are hundreds) on KA-T.org. Every guy on there has been a huge help on any problems you might face. And for the guy who said the have more torque you are exactly right my friend. You can run a big turbo as I am, (garrett T3/T04 .63 trim) and still have an assload of torque for drifting. But BEWARE, there are more ways to do this engine wrong than to do it right. With the right knowledge of what you can mix with what, you'll have a extremely torquey reliable power plant. :cheers:
reply if you have questions about my setup, I'm subscribing to this thread as this is the first i've seen from 240ATL to go KAT. alright welcome welcome brotha. (if you stick to it)

[S14Tech]

KA all the way. i'm going to run a t25 on stock internals (7psi). The amount of boost it can handle on stock internals really varies from engine to engine. about 6-7 psi most can handle, and alot can handle up to like 12-14 psi, but more than likely those would eventually screw up. If you're going for a rebuild, unless your going for like 400hp, i would probably say just go sr and save your time/money.



If you get all the parts for cheap enough, and you do it right it would completely be worth it cuz the ka is so torquey, but but you really have to weigh your options with your goals. My goal is only 225 hp for a dd, so i figured an sr would rock , but a ka would be cheaper and more fun to drive.
I've just finished gathering parts for my ka-t so heres how much i spent, for a budget build:
t25/manifold/dp: 320
intercooler/piping: 250
Injectors: 100
Clutch : free...
SAFC : 125
Oil lines : 80
Oil Pan w/ welded bung: 80
Wideband o2: 180
BOV: Free...

You might also want to swap out exhausts too...
Anyway, jiminycricket sounds like he's got it right (260 at 8psi is pretty nice...) just go on ka-t to find out more.

[jiminycricket]

KA all the way. i'm going to run a t25 on stock internals (7psi). The amount of boost it can handle on stock internals really varies from engine to engine. about 6-7 psi most can handle, and alot can handle up to like 12-14 psi, but more than likely those would eventually screw up. If you're going for a rebuild, unless your going for like 400hp, i would probably say just go sr and save your time/money.



If you get all the parts for cheap enough, and you do it right it would completely be worth it cuz the ka is so torquey, but but you really have to weigh your options with your goals. My goal is only 225 hp for a dd, so i figured an sr would rock , but a ka would be cheaper and more fun to drive.
I've just finished gathering parts for my ka-t so heres how much i spent, for a budget build:
t25/manifold/dp: 320
intercooler/piping: 250
Injectors: 100
Clutch : free...
SAFC : 125
Oil lines : 80
Oil Pan w/ welded bung: 80
Wideband o2: 180
BOV: Free...

You might also want to swap out exhausts too...
Anyway, jiminycricket sounds like he's got it right (260 at 8psi is pretty nice...) just go on ka-t to find out more.


thanks man :D I should've set a budget like you did. Cuz my boost controller and Bypass valve and wastegate exceeded that entire setup. :thinking: I'm not doin something right. hahha. When I get the money though, I'm taking it to TopHat to get it built. That won't be for a long time though, it all depends. I relaly hope this kid goes KA-T. 6-8 psi for a daily is all the KA needs. Trust me. Trust us. If you are crazy and want more then go for it. I'veseen KA's running 23psi on stock internals making 430 at the wheels. Of course, who knows how long that motor lasted after the video :P

[osiriskidd]

260 @8psi sounds exactly like what i'm looking for. thanks guys and i just joined ka-t.org and hopefully i'll get some useful information. could some of you guys PM me your setup's so i could get a feel of what i should be going after.

im going to start scoping out parts soon and hopefully by a few months i'll have it running boosted :D

[babowc]

im guessing youre talking about seanc(?) from ka-t.org

btw..
im still in the build process, but i got all of my parts.

jgs mani
t3 .60/.63 from z31
370cc / 5xxcc injectors from STi (yellowtop sidefeed high imp)
DSM crushed bov.. more than likely getting something else.
ebay fmic with custom piping.
2.5 dp
3" straight pipe catback
safc2, msd btm. / i already have parts for rom burn, but still need to learn on an easy setup like the safc2 to play with afrs. etc.
got a clutch from Tyler, supposed to handle upto 400hp, specially made for the ka24de by clutch specialties.
lc-1 wbo2

i think that covers everything..
i hope to hit mid 200s with this setup on a stock block.

later once i get used to it,
i'll be rebuilding the block with AMS parts in the room and upgrading to the run-of-the-mill t3/t04e .50/.63 and getting a professional tune.

i have an IAP EL mani, but i dunno.. then i'd need to get an external wastegate or block the hole off.

[jiminycricket]

[quote=babowc;84116]im guessing youre talking about seanc(?) from ka-t.org

btw..
im still in the build process, but i got all of my parts.

jgs mani


I WANT THAT MANIFOLD SO BAD

[Captain Morgan]

It's all about engine management, it's easy to make power with them, but chepa out on management, and you'll be looking forward to broken ringlands. jiminycricket is running the JWT, not cheap, but deifnitely reliable for those low boost KA-T guys, if you wanna go over 300 and last for more than a couple months playing rough with it, go ahead and build a motor with atleast pistons.

Cap'n

[babowc]

haha,
theres nothing to it really..

just a few elbows/tee's and two/three flanges.

good fitment with t3 or hybrids.

JWT tunes and Enthalpy tunes aren't the best, really..
I'd much rather do my own rom tunes, if i were going to spend +400-500 on a simple rom tune. which i will be doing :)

[I RON DON KEY]

Whatever floats your boat man. Go for it.

[GriffinW]

Im building a KA-T to put into my S12. Its my first turbo build and I am researching like crazy and not impulse buying (bad habit). Where can I get some reasonably priced and reliable forged pistons? I know about Arias and CP but I want to see all my options before I purchase them. Im thinking a 9:1 compression or maybe 8:6? Suggestions?

[DAsquintz]

i've got my options as well. i got to ka's ones not the de though jus a ka24 and then the other is ka24de... both have around 60,000miles... the ka24de... already has cams and valve springs/retainers... so i guess its a mild build but i dont know if i want to go ka-t or sr.... im thinking about jus' doing the ka-t.....

[BruceAlmighty]

woot!

more KA-T peeps. :goodjob:

[Neejay]

Man, it's really hard trying to discipline myself not to finish buying my KA-T parts yet. Im going to upgrade/replace my suspension first.

Here's my list of acquired + going to buy:

Acquired:
- SR20 SMIC + Coldpipe ($50 - a forum member) [has oem bpv, but I might get something aftermarket or a dsm]
- N60 MAFS ($37.00 - ebay)
- Z32 MAFS ($40)
- 3" SR20 downpipe ($40 - a forum member)

Planning:
- S15 T28 (brand new - debating on just getting a used one...)
- stainless KA T25/T28 manifold + sr20 outlet
- KA24DE T25/T28 Oil Line Kit (jgsturbo.com)
- t25/t28 oil feed and drain flanges
- SR or 95-96 300zx TT 370cc injectors
- walboro fuel pump
- Enthalpy ECU tune
- SR hotpipe
- wideband o2 PLX SM-AFR & DM-5 Combo

I have a t3/t04e, but for ease of DIY + spooling, I'd rather just get a T28 (so I wont have to be bothered with custom downpipe + wastegate + fitment). The bulk of the pricing would be from the brand NEW T28 ($750+/-) + Enthalpy tune ($500).


reply if you have questions about my setup, I'm subscribing to this thread as this is the first i've seen from 240ATL to go KAT. alright welcome welcome brotha. (if you stick to it)

Can you post your EXACT setup?

[badass240]

nice write up guys.

[jiminycricket]

yea so We should start a KA-T thread. :bump:

all we need is more people goin ka't :ninja:

what's scary is seein a KA-T in a Nissan Hardbody :confused:

[DAsquintz]

^theres one on nico...

[zakkkaliscious]

IM GOING KA-T AS WELL

[Neejay]

yea so We should start a KA-T thread. :bump:

all we need is more people goin ka't :ninja:

what's scary is seein a KA-T in a Nissan Hardbody :confused:

There was one on ka-t.org...I think it was a female too :) Even had a FMIC in between the headlights. lol

[Wes]

Haha, whats wrong with a boosted Hardbody?
Think about it, Atleast you'll have something quick to haul the spare KA's you'll need to have standing by :)

[jiminycricket]

Haha, whats wrong with a boosted Hardbody?
Think about it, Atleast you'll have something quick to haul the spare KA's you'll need to have standing by :)

At least we don't need a plane to ship them over from Japan :toung:

[AFSil80]

I'm not exactly for OR against KA-T. My buddy Jon has about 12,000 miles on his built KA-T right now, 9k of that was at 22psi, and a LOT of hard action. It just recently started acting up in the bottom end and drivetrain, but that's expected from a motor with an overbore that gets the shit beat out of it.

[jiminycricket]

I'm not exactly for OR against KA-T. My buddy Jon has about 12,000 miles on his built KA-T right now, 9k of that was at 22psi, and a LOT of hard action. It just recently started acting up in the bottom end and drivetrain, but that's expected from a motor with an overbore that gets the shit beat out of it.

'
When I get mine built I'm not going over 15!!!! 22psi Is Crazy!!!
musta been fast as hell though :)

[osiriskidd]

as soon as i get the loan approved tyler's going to start building for me :)

ka-t ftw. then i get to mess with internals and hopefully nothing asplodes.
if it does...then sr time.

[jiminycricket]

as soon as i get the loan approved tyler's going to start building for me :)

ka-t ftw. then i get to mess with internals and hopefully nothing asplodes.
if it does...then sr time.


:goodjob::goodjob::goodjob:

[hellfire]

w00t. Get to the bank! ;)

Tyler

[babowc]

once i sell my pinky..
i'll be rebuilding my block :D

i'd love to see more hardcore ka-t fans!

[GriffinW]

My KA-T is going to be fully built, I just need to find someone with a block lol.

[ThatS13Guy]

reps ka-t :)!!!!!!!

[babowc]

blocks are plentiful!!!

[GriffinW]

blocks are plentiful!!!

anybody on here have one? I'd rather get it from a member than a junk yard.

[hellfire]

I have a block. I think you asked me, but I completely forgot that I had one sitting in a car. Come pick it up. I'll PM you with price.

Tyler

[AFSil80]

'
When I get mine built I'm not going over 15!!!! 22psi Is Crazy!!!
musta been fast as hell though :)

Yeah, it's pretty fast. Mid 12 sec. car on regular street tires, traction issues and a VLSD.

[Nisxsz]

ka-t ftw!

[jiminycricket]

mmmm i'm a hardcore KAT Fan :cool:

[babowc]

indeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeed
just got built head..
should be getting shipped tomorrow!
YEY!

first build with arp hardware and forged pistons, hopefully.

next build will be with built head, bc264cams, ams internals and arp hardware!

:D cant wait for the head.

[GriffinW]

indeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeed
just got built head..
should be getting shipped tomorrow!
YEY!

first build with arp hardware and forged pistons, hopefully.

next build will be with built head, bc264cams, ams internals and arp hardware!

:D cant wait for the head.

Did you buy that head from a guy on Nico?

I think he was selling pistons too.

[babowc]

na.. head was found on Zilviiiia.

[GriffinW]

oh ok.

what pistons are you going to run?

[Casey]

buy your parts... aim for what you want for a while
then spend the money on a good tune...

[babowc]

im not entirely sure right now..
maybe supertech, they're having a sale.. 389 for 20overbore 9:1 pistons.

nooottttt sure.

btw.. im tuning myself.
rom tune.

[GriffinW]

Im a noob when it comes to rom tuning.

I was thinking about running the arias 8.8:1 on the ams website, how cheap are the supertech's?

[babowc]

389.00

but.. the guy on nico isnt responding man..
and that turbonla guy offered him 250 versus my 200.
:(

i want those damn pistons, lol.

[GriffinW]

There are starting to be more and more people on nico that put stuff on the classifieds and dont respond for a week.

389.00 is a good deal, and its lower than stock compression.

whats your overall goal in terms of hp and tq?

I think im going to shoot for 300hp/250ft-lbs range

[babowc]

im going to shoot for under 300/300 with the first setup
then once i fully build it.
i want to be able to keep the 300/300 at a daily basis and up it to at least 400/375 once i up the boost.

i think they're both really reasonable goals.
both on pump.

btw.. thats one failure of NICO.
NICO has no PM feature nor a home screen.
big downfall of that site.
i used to be zealous member.. now, not so much!

[GriffinW]

Yea I used to be on NICO all the time, but that no pm feature really turned me away. I try not to buy from there unless I get the sellers e-mail and home address before I send the money.

I plan on all new gaskets, forged pistons, MAYBE forged rods but from what I hear they are strong, arp hardware,and a port and polish on the head. I might just get the rods cryoed and see how they hold up.

300/300 daily is very reasonable if its a good motor with all its weak points reenforced.

[babowc]

yeah.
arp hardware is a must if you're doing a build.
pistons as well, our ringlands ftl.
ill be using cometic..so i can push more boost.

rods are supposedly good upto 300-350 stock.

im only using stock rods first build since im doing a next build fully built.

[GriffinW]

ams has the felpro gasket kit for sale for 150, and their site says they use that on all their builds so ill probably go with that.

cometic > felpro?

[babowc]

i got felpro kit here,
i dunno honestly.
im going with cometic for the hg.
lol.

[BruceAlmighty]

yeah.
arp hardware is a must if you're doing a build.
pistons as well, our ringlands ftl.
ill be using cometic..so i can push more boost.

rods are supposedly good upto 300-350 stock.

im only using stock rods first build since im doing a next build fully built.

Ivan said himself that the stock rods will hold up to 600whp before they start to rainbow.

[babowc]

hm..
im not willing to push that much hp
haha
once i do a full build anyways.. im not going to risk my head and everything else on stock rods.
nothing in the block will be stock minus squirters and oil pickup and the likes.

[BruceAlmighty]

^

thats the best way to do things. :)

[babowc]

her her her.
you are right.

ive been saying this for awhile now though.
probably ppl know this already, though.
ha!

[BruceAlmighty]

you would be surprised how many people do not.

[babowc]

Orly?
:ninja::mrgreen:8-)

[BruceAlmighty]

:goodjob:

yes, really. :cheers:

[babowc]

werd.
im going to meet up with the guy from NICO today :)
time to get some pistons!

[s14unimog]

This is a confusing little thread we got going here. If you plan to do the KA-T route yourself then this forum wouldn't be my first choice to look for information. My advice to you is to SEARCH ka-t.org and see what you find. What I will tell you is:

You WILL have problems that YOU will more than likely have to fix, unless you just take it to the shop every time you hear a rattle, which gets expensive.

There is no perfect setup that someone will be able to tell you to "safely" get your HP goals. There are many ways to make 300hp on a KA

and judging from what you wrote in your first thread, you obviously don't know what you are getting into. KA's are very strong and very weak at the same time. Just like the blessed SR20. I've seen 400hp daily KA-t's that run for years and I've seen 180hp ones pop on the dyno.

I did KA-t for about 2 years on my s14 and I had more than 2 years invested in research before the buildup.

Just some food for thought, good luck!

KA-T FTW!

[Neejay]

This is a confusing little thread we got going here. If you plan to do the KA-T route yourself then this forum wouldn't be my first choice to look for information. My advice to you is to SEARCH ka-t.org and see what you find. What I will tell you is:

You WILL have problems that YOU will more than likely have to fix, unless you just take it to the shop every time you hear a rattle, which gets expensive.

There is no perfect setup that someone will be able to tell you to "safely" get your HP goals. There are many ways to make 300hp on a KA

and judging from what you wrote in your first thread, you obviously don't know what you are getting into. KA's are very strong and very weak at the same time. Just like the blessed SR20. I've seen 400hp daily KA-t's that run for years and I've seen 180hp ones pop on the dyno.

I did KA-t for about 2 years on my s14 and I had more than 2 years invested in research before the buildup.

Just some food for thought, good luck!

KA-T FTW!He speaks the truth!^

[babowc]

with any motor, its the same deal.
depends on how you take care of it and with any modded motors, you'll have to get the tune down right.

[GriffinW]

with any motor, its the same deal.
depends on how you take care of it and with any modded motors, you'll have to get the tune down right.

Exactly, its all about the tune.

[s14unimog]

I will second that statement

tune, tune and tune again....then once you think you've got it, tune again.

Oh, also get some ignition control for that KA. People always forget about that part

[babowc]

timing, right?
i plan on running btm...
ill be pulling 1* per 1lb of boost after 6 or 7 psi.

[s14unimog]

yeah thats not enough. I ran 17* with a T25 at 7psi and 10psi. You'll get some spark knocking. You'll need an ignition controller. Boost comes in to quick for the KA's Ecu to react

also that would mean at 7psi you'll have 13*, I'm not sure if your car will run right with that.

[babowc]

hm...
i dont know about running 13* @ 7psi.
i was more on the lines of 19 or 20btdc @ stock wg psi on z31 turbo.. which is like 7.xx psi.

then start pulling 1* per lb.

but..
by ignition, you mean upgrading ignition, like MSD box?

[s14unimog]

I think Emanage controls timing too doesn't it. Some of those piggy backs have ignition control.

20* (stock timing) is not safe for boost

[babowc]

I think Emanage ultimate does control timing.
I think thats the only piggyback that can control timing for the KA.

meh.. I'd have thought stock timing could be o-k for low boost apps.

I still have yet to learn alot about tuning.
I'll see what happens though..
Knocklite is supposedly really good at detecting knock to prevent any losses.

[hellfire]

Emanage Blue and Ultimate can control timing. Along with MAP ECU, and tons of others.

You could always just retard the timing via the dist. for a temp solution until you get some sort of timing control.

Tyler

[Neejay]

Im going with a Enthalpy tune + dyno tune for fine tuning

[s14unimog]

Tyler is correct... You'll have to change the base timing with the dist. for sure. What I'm talking about is under boost and coming into boost. thats where I ran into timing control issues. A reflash is a good start but I still recommend a dyno tune and a wideband in the car to be reliable (or at least closer to it).

[GriffinW]

I still recommend a dyno tune and a wideband in the car to be reliable (or at least closer to it).

agreed.

Ill be spending atleast 1000 in electronics before I start to tune. Better safe than sorry.

[Neejay]

A reflash is a good start but I still recommend a dyno tune and a wideband in the car to be reliable (or at least closer to it).I agree. Even with the Enthalpy tune, I'll have a wideband + get dyno tuned.

PS: lol @ "Reason: had to piss so I rushed a little"

[babowc]

agreed.

Ill be spending atleast 1000 in electronics before I start to tune. Better safe than sorry.

too general to be saying that..
$1,000 in good engine management is nothing..

if you want good engine management, and are serious about the tuning, get yourself an AEM EMS.
those things run about $1500 or so.
then you'll have to re-do everything, but you'll have a SOLID tune.

same deal with megasquirt and such, but you know AEMs got the game down.

anyways. 1grand in electronics really mean nothing..
you should set up a goal and go for that, instead of just blatently dropping a grand.

you really dont even need to spend that much, unless you were SERIOUS about racing/tuning.

breakdown:
if you want to go reflash:
ecu - 500
safc2- 150
wbo2- 250-300

thats all you need, just have the timing down right, and you can fine-tune your setup. I cant imagine having to "fine-tune" something I paid over $500, for though. Hence i'm going with my safc2/btm setup until I can learn the ROM tune crap I have sitting here.

if you want to go standalone:
$, thats it. lol.

[Neejay]

Do you think the Enthalpy tunes will need to be fine tuned? If even for a piece of mind?

[jiminycricket]

I'm getting a retune X 5 after I get my KA built for around 15psi daily, gonna aim for 350/325 tq. or around that ballpark, idk about timing issue, haven't had trouble with mine and i'm running 9psi on stock bottom end. good luck to all of you though.

[GriffinW]

you really dont even need to spend that much, unless you were SERIOUS about racing/tuning.


If you arent serious about tuning, you shouldn't be turbo'ing a KA.

Im in school, so i didnt have much time to explain my EM setup, I just through out a number.

I plan on going with E-manage blue and almost all the options you can get with that. Then ill get the E-01, that way I dont need a laptop to see what im doing w/ the E-blue. Thats about 1100 right there. Then ill pick up a wbo2.

that should be good for my goals.

[babowc]

got them pistons ;)

[GriffinW]

which ones did you go with?

the supertechs?

[babowc]

na.
got the one from NICOclub.
$200 for pistons+shotpeened stock rods.
I think i'll start the build this following weekend or so.

yay yay.
CP pistons
.20 overbore.
9:1

[GriffinW]

You got a sweet deal.

How much is shotpeening?

[babowc]

lol I have no clue.
rods and pistons came together :)

[GriffinW]

I know cryo treating is pretty inexpensive. Im just not sure how effective it is compared to shotpeening.

I still cant get over that deal you got!

were the pistons used?

[babowc]

haha yeah.
they're used. :)

I had to drive down to perimeter mall and wait like 20 mins for these.
hehe.

[GriffinW]

well as long as they are in good shape its all good.

idk about you but perimeter is a long way from me. Was the guy cool or was it a shady situation.

[babowc]

he was cool.
his dad actually came out and we made the transaction.

fergus, himself is in the marines based somewhere in socal.
so he couldnt come, lol.

i dunno.. its in good shape, but i've been looking at them with REAL scrutiny and there are a couple things im not happy about, but i paid $200, i dont expect them to be brand new ;)

I'll take my block and these pistons to the shop within a week or so..
then ill start saving for cometic hg and ARP hardware.

I think i'll start a build thread soon. haha

[JJ Alfano]

I have a KA-T set up that I want to use for drifting.

SSAC Manifold
SR T25
SR 370cc Injectors
BOV
2.5 downpipe
front mount.


im plannign on cometic headgasket and walbro 255 and SAFC2


anything else I need. this is a budget by the way. Do you think that stock PSI would be ok? I basically want SR power but more torque. Plus I've had a KA-T before but that was my first car and engine management wasnt even considered for me. It got rod knock and then...blew.

so help me from doing this again!! Im too broke for SR, and if I sell this stuff I have now, it will only be a quarter of what I need for an SR :( HELP!

eagle has forged pistons for KA's for a little over 300 bucks for the record.

[GriffinW]

budget isnt good when building a KA-T.

ill elaborate later, bell is ringing.

high school FTMFL

There are a million ways to do a KA-T wrong, and the few right ways to do it cost a good bit. so dont go budget on a KA, it'll just blow up.

[babowc]

eagle doesnt sell pistons. lol.
eagle sells rods. they're 349 by themselves.
cheaper on ka-t.org

go with pistons rather than rods, pistons are the weaker link on our motors.

you can do a simple srt25 setup under a grand.
it's a good setup.. doesn't get much cheaper than that.

[Neejay]

eagle doesnt sell pistons. lol.
eagle sells rods. they're 349 by themselves.
cheaper on ka-t.org

go with pistons rather than rods, pistons are the weaker link on our motors.

you can do a simple srt25 setup under a grand.
it's a good setup.. doesn't get much cheaper than that.

I thought about doing that too...just to get it going...but bah...would kinda be a waste if I plan on going T3

[JJ Alfano]

i already have all the SR stuff. All i need is SAFC, fuel pump, and headgasket.

[GriffinW]

T3/4 > T2's

I wouldnt waste the money if you are planning on going T3 later. But if you already have the turbo like JJ, then thats an obvious decision.

[JJ Alfano]

so if im running a t25 at stock boost. can i use it for drifting if i have fuel management? the KA is from an automatic 97, so im sure it wasn' beaten on. I guess ill replace rings, headgasket, and fuel pump and then put it together and see how long it lasts! Wish me luck guys!! Phantom Silvia needs to buy my FREAKING WHEELS SO I CAN DO THIS!!! Im tired of not having a car!!

[GriffinW]

sure you can use it for drifting. The KA is a great motor to use for drifting in the first place with all that low end grunt and torque. Slapping a turbo on it only makes it better.

[babowc]

dunno,
afaik, drifting requires higher-revs.

[GriffinW]

drifting does require higher revs, but if you can get those tires loose sooner in your rpm range, its a good thing.