DIY: Pandas14's ITB for the KA24de

[MrBojangles]

Disclaimer: By no means do I wish to steal credit for this but I think this is possibly the best DIY post I have ever read. Credit goes out to Scott (pandas14) for making such an amazing contribution to the KA community. PS He has moved on to a turbo setup with the ITB's as well and made great numbers :)


Just recently got this project running, so I might as well do a writeup.

Here goes.

Intake mani and TB's

First, get some 01' or higher Suzuki GSXR 1000 or 750 Throttle Bodies.

Then get an extra intake mani.

Cut the runners off approximately 6" from the head flange.

Go to Home Depot and get some rubber plumbing couplers. They're about $5 a piece with clamps.

Clamp the Mani and TB's together to yield this...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v607/ScooterS14/ITBs/top1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v607/ScooterS14/ITBs/top3.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v607/ScooterS14/ITBs/bottom1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v607/ScooterS14/ITBs/megasquirt019.jpg

And with the couplers trimmed down, and the velocity stacks on...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v607/ScooterS14/ITBs/ITBs.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v607/ScooterS14/ITBs/ITBs005.jpg

Now make 2 brackets that brace the TB's to the mani, for extra strength.

I used 3/4" by 3/16" steel. You can find this at Home Depot. Bolted one end to the TB's and the other slips under the mounting point for the PCV rail. Make one per side. Should look something like this...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v607/ScooterS14/ITBs/megasquirt023.jpg

Now make a bracket for the throttle cable to slip into. I used 1 1/2" angle iron. This can also be found at Home Depot. Make it to bolt onto the mounting surface that the EGR used to sit on.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v607/ScooterS14/ITBs/megasquirt017.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v607/ScooterS14/ITBs/megasquirt018.jpg

Get a SOHC throttle cable. The DOHC one is wayyyy too long. The SOHC cable is too long too, but better than the DOHC one. The end of the Nissan throttle cable that slips onto the throttle wheel fits in the Suzuki throttle wheel perfectly.

get two air boxes from a 01' and up GSXR 750. These have the shortest velocity stacks. Each airbox has two short stacks, and two long ones. Once you have 2 boxes, you will have two full sets of velocity stacks to help you achieve the best powerband down the road.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v607/ScooterS14/ITBs/stacks001.jpg

That's it for the manifold part of things.

Now the fuel management.

I chose to use a MegaSquirt (MS) because of price, and because, well, I love DIY stuff as you can probably see. haha

Get your board and bags of components all lined up like so...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v607/ScooterS14/MegaSquirt/megasquirt004.jpg

Build the stimulator first. This will help you learn how to make proper solder joints befor you start soldering the actual MS together. The stimulator hooks up to Megasquirt and stimulates the MS such that it thinks it is running an engine. What this does is allow you to make sure all of your MS is built and running correctly before trying to start the car with it. It also allows you to download new codes to the CPU chip as you see fit, without having to have the MS in the car. Very trick.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v607/ScooterS14/MegaSquirt/megastim005.jpg

Follow the MegaManual at www.megasquirt.info and you will end up with this...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v607/ScooterS14/MegaSquirt/wheels2007.jpg

[MrBojangles]

Now build the pigtail for the wiring harness...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v607/ScooterS14/MegaSquirt/harness001.jpg

and here's a better pic of how many wires there are. This is the entire engine harness. Stock one gets removed completely.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v607/ScooterS14/MegaSquirt/harness002.jpg

that's basically it for the MS.

Now for the ignition setup.

I chose to run a distributorless system off of early 90's Ford Escorts. This system uses a trigger wheel that is mounted to the crank pulley to fire the ignition instead of a gear driven distributor. This has many advantages, the first of which being that it is more accurate than the stock distributor. It also gives full control of the ignition timing.

from left to righ in the pic below, we have the EDIS module, the VR sensor (reads the trigger wheel on the crank pulley) and the Coil.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v607/ScooterS14/ITBs/megasquirt015.jpg

Here is a picture of the spark plug wires modified to fit down the spark plug holes in the valve cover. the boot that connects to the plugs has about a 30 degree bend in them so I bent them back straight, and trimmed the boots until they slid down into the holes in the valve cover.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v607/ScooterS14/ITBs/megasquirt014.jpg

Next, you have to get a trigger wheel made. I have a friend who is a CNC machinist, so he made one for me, as well as prepping the crank pulley for the wheel.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v607/ScooterS14/MegaSquirt/megasquirt024.jpg

And the wheel fit onto the pulley looks like so...

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y263/scooters142/itbs010.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y263/scooters142/itbs008.jpg

Now make a bracket to mount the VR sensor onto. I put mine where the A/C compressor used to be. just some more of the angle Iron used before, long enough to mount the sensor on, facing the crank pulley.

Next, make a block off plate for the hole that the distributor used to occupy. I made mine big enough to mount the new coil to, as that is as far as the plug wires would reach. Just simple 1/8" thick steel. when finished it looks like this bolted to the engine, with the new coil mounted on it.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y263/scooters142/ITBs004.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y263/scooters142/ITBs003.jpg

On a side note, here is the stock KA24DE timing map I scaled down. I have used it and it works great.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v607/ScooterS14/MegaSquirt/stocktimingmap.jpg

Putting it all together.

Now pull off your stock intake mani, and take out your engine harness. You will no longer need either of these. bolt the new mani onto the engine, it should look something like this...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v607/ScooterS14/ITBs/itbs005.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v607/ScooterS14/ITBs/itbs002.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y263/scooters142/ITBs001.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y263/scooters142/ITBs002.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y263/scooters142/ITBs005.jpg

You can also see in those pics the wiring harness was finished. It's simply following the diagram, running each wire to each sensor.

the only things that were not on the diagrams were the tach signal, water temp gauge and the switched ignition power supply. the Tach signal was cake, run a wire from the Clean Tach Out pin on the EDIS module to the Tach input on the back of the gauge cluster. That's it. Speedo will still work. Run a wire from the second temp sensor in the intake mani to the coolant temp input on the back of the gauge cluster. that's all for that. And the B/R wire coming from the igntion switch on the steering column needs to be tapped into to get switched power to MS, and the ignition components.



However, the wiring diagram for the ignition is slightly off. the polarity of the VR sensor wires is opposite than in the diagrams, so wire that up accordingly.

I used the stock injectors for now, but I have some SR injectors lying around waiting to go in. Stock injectors will be enough for now.

for the brake booster, I used the stock PCV rail, and ran one line from its output to the brake booster. Has worked great. I also Tee'd a 1/4" vacuum line out of this line, on it's way to the booster, for the fuel pressure regulator. Before doing any of this, I measured the vacuum in this line, and in the rest of the intake mani under all braking conditions, and the booster did not affect the vacuum in the engine. This being so, it is safe, and fine to run the vacuum for the FPR from the brake booster vacuum line.

the TB's come from the factory with a vacuum line from each port Tee'd into one. this is used for the map sensor. Simply run a line from this to MS. the MAP sensor is inside the MS box.

Then swap out the throttle cables, and hook the SOHC one up.

Finally, plug the EGR hole in your header.

If I recall correctly, this is about it for what I did on this whole project to get it running. for the specifics of the MS building and whatnot, and the ignition specifics and diagrams, visit www.msefi.com and www.megasquirt.info.

I specifically did not go into extensive detail in these areas because it is covered very well at those two sites.

So finally start it up and get it idling correctly. Do this by adjusting the screw that adjusts how far open the throttle plates are at "closed" so it has an idle speed you like, and adjusting the fuel amount in the MS. You can then get your own wideband to tune it, or take it to someone. Wichever's clever.

After tuning it, GO DRIVE IT! Don't forget to give yourself a pat on the back too!

Please forgive me if I have forgotten anything, it is a very long project, there is so much to do. I may have left a few small details out, but this is the major stuff.

Driving impressions
I don't have it tuned very well yet, but I can tell you that throttle response is immediate. The engine also revs up MUCH quicker. It does not feel like the lunky old KA. It's a whole new engine. This definately made it come alive. It is, of course MUCh louder also. It no longer sounds like a KA. Sounds way more pissed, like an engine with 2x the displacement.No dyno slips yet, but once I get one, I will be certain to post it up, as well as a video/soundclip.

Cheers
Scott Slater

His dyno made roughly 155whp (an estimated 20+whp gain from stock) on the N/A ka and he made upwards of 270 at 10 PSI on a turbo setup.

[MrBojangles]

With the turbo application:


wow, it's been a long time since I've posted here!

Pumaking, you're definately a troll. My old setup was ghetto, but what do you expect with ALL hand tools (no power tools) in my one bedroom apt in my first year of college? Did you do something inventive or new? put up or shut up. Oh and Matt's my homie, not some nut swinger.

Dave from Haltech was living with me at the time I got my E8 and offered to do my harness. He had some killer tricks he showed me. Like I had no idea how to do it? c'mon. My car was a chance for Haltech to showcase not only their new E8 ecu, but its functions, capabilities, and showmanship/craftmanship with the harness Dave made. I was there helping him every minute while he made it, as I was redoing the chassis harness and fuse box.

Hopefully this will clear up any question about my ongoing setup being half assed. ALL fabbed up by yours truly.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y263/scooters142/turbo/turbopics044.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y263/scooters142/turbo/turbopics043.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y263/scooters142/turbo/turbopics046.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y263/scooters142/turbo/390751c3.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y263/scooters142/turbo/b25b5dea.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y263/scooters142/turbo/a1d90178.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y263/scooters142/turbo/turbopics004.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y263/scooters142/Dyno%20Sheets/turbopics059.jpg

[.gauge.altima.]

Is that the same write up on Wikipedia?
I'll be using it to help me to the ITB setup on my car.

[1800DialKyle]

that is amazing!

[MrBojangles]

Is that the same write up on Wikipedia?
I'll be using it to help me to the ITB setup on my car.

He first posted it on the 240sxforums which is where I source this from and his turbo setup pics. He has a dyno on there as well for the N/A setup, with a 3" catback exhaust and he made 152.2whp on a terrible tune on the haltec.

[Infinite]

i'll probably try some diy itb's. i can get bike parts galore but the butterflies are kinda small for a high power app. maybe 4 sr20 throttle bodies

[MrBojangles]

you want throttle bodies ~close to the size of your intake runners. Thats why they are usually small independently. 4 SR throttle bodies would be really fking big for itb's.

[Infinite]

well the butterflies on bike itbs are not as big as the runners.
if i remember correctly the largest runner is on the hayabusa.. they are 49 at the velocity stack and 46 at the butterrfly. i may be able to find a set of those through work but its doubtful. and the runner spacing is slightly off. so it would look pretty janky unless i seperated the itbs from each other and made a custom butterfly shaft

[MrBojangles]

ermm.... KA's runners are 43 or 44 mm lol. not sure what motor your thinking about setting up with these but I was talking about a KA.

[Infinite]

well thats the hayabusa size. it looks like he used gsx-r 750 itb's which are dinky. 38 or so.

i may just have some machined at work.. an itb is nothing more than a tube with a butterfly in it.. add a provision for a tps and you're golden.
so i could make some 50mm itb's without a problem,

[MrBojangles]

how he commented on it when asked about the sizing.


The throttle plate diameter is 42mm.

stock runner ID is 44-45mm

I've heard Hyabusa TB's are 46mm, but I'm not sure about that. I'm also not sure about the spacing between the TB's.

One thing to remember is that with a larger throttle plate diameter, you have a potential for more absolute HP, but throttle response will decline. Also, there is a TP diameter that is optimal for each engine, and anything bigger will just have adverse affects. However, since ITB's on KA's is a very new thing with not much testing, nobody knows what the optimum throttle plate diameter is. It very well could be larger than 42mm, or it could be smaller. Nobody knows. More than likely tho, it is larger than 42mm, but not by much.

Also, about carbs. Both carbs and ITB's make a bunch more power than stock, and yield much better throttle response. However, the powerband with carbs is narrower and more peaky, so that's why ITB's were my choice.

So yeah it would def be interesting to see the comparison of the two dynos and how the size affects the powerband and peak power.

[Infinite]

yea. im gonna fire up solidworks here in a bit and get to work. if i had an sr20 intake flange file i'd be in heaven because i could do a whole manifold... take it to work and with some begging and pleading i could run it on the 5-axis mill

[flip]

Do it! I wana see that... THen make 10 more and sell them :).


yea. im gonna fire up solidworks here in a bit and get to work. if i had an sr20 intake flange file i'd be in heaven because i could do a whole manifold... take it to work and with some begging and pleading i could run it on the 5-axis mill

[Infinite]

well get me a spare sr20det intake manifold so i can measure the intake flange.

if i could get this done it wouldnt be cheap. but it would def. be one off pimp shit that would make gobs of power

[MrBojangles]

PSH.... get your priorities straight. KA > SR hehe.

Plus the only other intake manifold option we have is the AMS one that is in development.... but that one is hot beyond believe.

Final product will have curved runners. Still $1k+ price tag expected and it won't help any of us bums with passing obd-ii emissions but it i sweet enough to tempt me to find a county w/o emissions to live in lol.

http://turbo240.com/images/intakemanifold/DSC02231.jpg

[santacruz77]

i want itbs sooo bad!

[babowc]

lol @ 4 SR TB for ITB setup for a KA or even a SR..

*Note: 'dinky' 39mm TB x 4 = 156mm..
i cant imagine anyone sticking four SR or KA throttle bodies on individual runners..

[Infinite]

the setup im making in solidworks would run way more than 1k. i'd have to go through and estimate material usage/waste, etc. setup time and such

[Infinite]

my answer to the ghetto method above (rough, need head flange to figure out proper runner length and angle, as well as spacing)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v701/Wantboost/tb1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v701/Wantboost/tb2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v701/Wantboost/tb3.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v701/Wantboost/tb4.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v701/Wantboost/tb5.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v701/Wantboost/tb6.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v701/Wantboost/tb7.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v701/Wantboost/tb8.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v701/Wantboost/tb9.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v701/Wantboost/tb10.jpg

[s13z32]

If you guys are serious about this setup, let me know. I built an MS controller for my old LZ22 620 bulletside truck. I used the EFI from a 280Z, cutting the 2 middle runners out and welding the mani back together. Took all of 2 hours to get it fine tuned and then drove it to KittyHawk NC for the weekend and got 28MPG averaging 65mph. There was a lot of discussion over at the 240sx forum about this buildup being half assed, I'v e never actually seen the car so I can't say one way or the other, but the MS website has very good directions on how to build these controllers and they are verymuch worth the time and effort to build, or if you just want to buy one call me @904-497-2782 and I'll be glad to build one for you to your specs.

[MrBojangles]

Until I'm in a position where I can abandon my obligation to OBD-II emissions..... I think I have to stay with stock ka manifold :(

[s13z32]

Not a problem. the MS is tuneable so you can just reprogramm for the sniffer and get your sticker then reprogramm and scorch the tires as you ride off into the sun set with your number one finger held out high to the officials as you leave.

[flip]

Not a problem. the MS is tuneable so you can just reprogramm for the sniffer and get your sticker then reprogramm and scorch the tires as you ride off into the sun set with your number one finger held out high to the officials as you leave.

LOL :)

[MrBojangles]

Not a problem. the MS is tuneable so you can just reprogramm for the sniffer and get your sticker then reprogramm and scorch the tires as you ride off into the sun set with your number one finger held out high to the officials as you leave.

lol as far as I know MS will not work for 96+ OBD-II ecu's. I don't have to pass a sniffer anyways, I have to pass the plug (systems check). Anyways I think the Greddy Emanage Ultimate will be fine for my purposes up until i look for more than 550 or so whp (it only supports up to 950cc injectors iirc..... need to confirm that though), none the less 75 lb/hr injectors have proven up to 523whp so with the 84 lb/hr's i get in a month I should be able to hit that mark as well.

Lol I'll try and be the highest hp 240 still running a stock, unchipped ecu w/ a "piggy back" (as much of a piggy back as you can call the GEU)lol.

[s13z32]

I'm pretty sure the MS2 works on obd2 cars, don't hold me to it though. I guess I'll have to call them and get the lowdown on that so I kn ow one way or the other.

[MrBojangles]

It may work on them but I talked with an authorized distributor that has used them on dozens of cars and he said it will not maintain the emissions system.

[Georgia_boy]

truely amazing!!!!

but the only thing that got me was he didn't even crack 200ft-lbs of TQ.
that should have been easy with 10psi on a KA.

how long till AMS is finished with the new intake??

[JTA021]

the welds on his dp look like crap.... still real nice setup though